The Nicene Creed

JeffTheLearner

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Either, or neither. The point was that there are a lot of false doctrines and traditions in the church.
I dont think such doctrines are worthy of making one "anathima" to Yah's assemblies. I really think there is a great and evil motive behind making such divisions, and scripture makes clear where the line is drawn in regards to bador false doctrine ...and this issue is not one of them, at worst it could just be percieved as ignorance by either party ...but not worthy of making one anathima.
 
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Open Heart

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Either, or neither. The point was that there are a lot of false doctrines and traditions in the church.
I'm curious what false doctrines you think there are. This is perhaps not a good place. Shall we try General Theology?
 
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JeffTheLearner

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I'm curious what false doctrines you think there are. This is perhaps not a good place. Shall we try General Theology?

No need ...both believe Messiah came in the flesh, both believe Messiah is King, and Head of the Church, both believe that Messiah was in the Beginning of creation, and both believe Messiah is a God. It is these issues that our faith, and the Gospel only requires.

There is no mandate to worship the Son, but only that we honor The Son as a King and High Priest , and that we together worship The Father.

The dispute really is just a matter of revelation ...and to say who is lacking such a revelation, or who is above his brother for such a revelation should only be nothing more than discussion. No such divisions should occur, and no harsh treatment is warranted at all.

Now what is against The Law of the Assembly of our Messiah, is to murder our brethren, or to show partiality, or to call one a fool, or impose harsh torments upon one another, and to not stir up unnecessary schism ...We are commanded to love one another, and to forgive the faults of anyone who repents as transgressers of YHVH's Law, and the Word of our King, The King of Israel.

For this reason I too believe (over look my personal bias) that Arius suffered a supernatural death, or if one of Athanasius' succeeded in poisoning him AFTER Arius won the majority of the council's, and walking in triumph ...it can be said it was because his doctrine was correct, but his anathematizing of those who did not agree was a sin that YHVH could not leave unchecked. Because Arius too allowed what Alexander of Alexandria did to him, to be done to others who did not agree with Arius.

All in all, The ruler of this world subdued the Church because of this and created a counterfeit filled with all kinds of lascivious heresies, and blatant idolatries.

We need to love each other ...we are brethren, and that is what is important.
 
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Open Heart

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Uhmmm read what I wrote...

ONLY GD CAN FORGIVE SIN
I *got* that. You are saying that Jesus is God. I'm saying you can't stop there. There are too many ways that Jesus can be God that are heretical. The church allowed laxity on the issue for hundreds of years and ultimately it didn't work. They had to pinpoint orthodoxy and enforce it.
 
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Open Heart

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and to not stir up unnecessary schism
All schism is unnecessary and sinful, prohibited by Paul. The church was in turmoil over the Arian controversy. The council was a necessity. The proper response afterwards was to come into union with the decision, rather than to continue fighting the agreed upon orthodoxy.
 
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JeffTheLearner

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I think a new Creed is needed in Messiahs Universal Assembly, something like...

My brother believes our Messiah has always existed without a beginning, or my brother believes our Messiah has a beginning and is eternal.

Let no one exploit us on our difference to divide us, and for those who try, may they be Anathema!

...I like that Creed better.
 
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Open Heart

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I think a new Creed is needed in Messiahs
But it sounds like your suggestion is not much of a creed at all. You don't have the guts to take on the difficult problems, but want to stay with the church in an upheaval. Tsk Tsk.
 
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JeffTheLearner

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But it sounds like your suggestion is not much of a creed at all. You don't have the guts to take on the difficult problems, but want to stay with the church in an upheaval. Tsk Tsk.

lol, yeah, I agree. The real problem is sin in the Church. If one commits adultery, murder, theft, idolatry, blasphemy, fornication, usery, perversion, slander, coarse jesting, or exploitation of the widow, fatherless poor without repentance ...for these allowances many preachers for pay are exalted. And while we are busy destroying each other over these vague differences of understanding, those who do blatant wickedness go unnoticed as they pretend they are of us.

There is no government of nationality in Messiah, there is ONLY Israel (graphed in, or not) ...let no worldly tyrant exploit us either.
 
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JeffTheLearner

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The whole point of the church or any place to teach and learn the scriptures is to unlearn the ways of the world and the pagans, not bring them in with us.

Now I'm adding in this a reflection of my own bias, but I honestly don't think most who believe this Creed think this is erroneous, I honestly think it is a common error among many NEW in the faith (or old, but not well studied from the scripture source)

I say this because those who have not studied everything diligently, and within the context (...and some are not afforded the time to) ...it seems as if this creed is so to them, but it is those who manipulate them and tell them that everyone who sees a specific difference in this refusing to call themselves "Trinitarian" ...it is those people causing the problems. Not to say that those of the Arius banner are guiltless too.

I just say educate ...if they don't see it the same way, don't condemn, maybe they don't know all you know, and will at a later date agree. The important thing is that we love each other, and we together condemn the unrepentant, and blatantly idolatrous.
 
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Open Heart

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lol, yeah, I agree. The real problem is sin in the Church. If one commits adultery, murder, theft, idolatry, blasphemy, fornication, usery, perversion, slander, coarse jesting, or exploitation of the widow, fatherless poor without repentance ...for these allowances many preachers for pay are exalted. And while we are busy destroying each other over these vague differences of understanding, those who do blatant wickedness go unnoticed as they pretend they are of us.

There is no government of nationality in Messiah, there is ONLY Israel (graphed in, or not) ...let no worldly tyrant exploit us either.
I'm not saying sin in the church isn't a problem. You are always going to have sin in the church because the church is people. But the church is entrusted to teach the truth, and so it can't shy away from these issues.
 
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JeffTheLearner

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I'm not saying sin in the church isn't a problem. You are always going to have sin in the church because the church is people. But the church is entrusted to teach the truth, and so it can't shy away from these issues.

Oh, lol. I thought you were being sarcastic in the previous statement.

But I don't see how this specific issue brings any false unity. Putting aside all the Marcion heresy that usually accompanies this ...don't we all serve the same God, and King?

Before the Marcion heresies became mainstream, this issue was effectively used to exploit a division first ...then came the accompanying Marcionism repackaged, and relabled as "Orthodox" approved which attached itself to it.

This was done to alienate people of the Church from their heavenly citizenship to concern themselves with more worldly kingdoms with a "I love Jesus" sticker on its bumper. This also alienated them from the Hebrew Roots of the faith where men instead sought dimly lit ignorant Roman Priest for answers rather than consulting Judians ...or the dreaded OT even, lol.

Yeah, please don't mix the folly of Marcionism in with this ...remember this is even an issue among us in the Hebrew Roots movement, many of whom tossed out their old idols.

Remember also the form of Christianity that effected the more decadent Roman elites within all its provinces abroad were those of Simon Magus, and Marcion of Sinope who's father was a highly regarded elder among the Church in his day ...but Marcion becoming a destroyer of his own fathers legacy with his blasphemy filled heresies started a Counterfeit Church of his own.
 
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Open Heart

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Before the Marcion heresies became mainstream, this issue was effectively used to exploit a division first ...then came the accompanying Marcionism repackaged, and relabled as "Orthodox" approved which attached itself to it.
I'm so not following you. I'm not terribly fluent in Marcionism, but I know enough to know that it never became the mainstream and certainly never became orthodoxy. So I don't know how to make heads or tails of your post.
 
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JeffTheLearner

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Another issue kind of hidden in the background of this Nicene Creed is the redating of Passover to coincide with a common feast of Roman occultist.

To me, that right there is blatant idolatry, and is also a contemptuous desecration equal to blasphemy according to the Good Book ...that should be condemned, and denounced harshly.

It is not okay to profane Yah's Holy Days. If a blasphemous man, and an evil example to all, as written by Daniel concerning that evil one to change dates and times ...it be on the heart of any TRUE believer to not profane such things.
 
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JeffTheLearner

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I'm so not following you. I'm not terribly fluent in Marcionism, but I know enough to know that it never became the mainstream and certainly never became orthodoxy. So I don't know how to make heads or tails of your post.

Read the doctrines of Marcion ...then you will see what Im talking about. Yes, at a later time it did become mainstream, and the Roman Church did adopt the abandonment of the OT, a hatered for Jews, and a strict observance of solely Lukes Gospel, and the Letters of Paul only.
 
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Open Heart

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Read the doctrines of Marcion ...then you will see what Im talking about. Yes, at a later time it did become mainstream, and the Roman Church did adopt the abandonment of the OT, a hatered for Jews, and a strict observance of solely Lukes Gospel, and the Letters of Paul only.
rediculous.

It just goes to show you, just when you think you've heard all the anti-Catholic nonsense out there, someone will invent some new silliness. Contra, have you heard this one before?
 
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JeffTheLearner

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...I would also read St. Ephraim the Syrian's writings: Against Marcion (1 to 3) ... would even read his other discourses for a better background.

There are other "Against Marcion" discourses by other writers during this Roman reformation of the Jewish Apostolic faith, but I forget their names right now.

And another good background would be: The History of the Martyrs in Palestine, by Eusebius of Caesarea ...it shows some affect to Marcion heresy.
 
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