Open Heart
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The reason you can't lose your salvation.
- Thread starter DeepWater
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nobdysfool
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I can't help it if you refuse to receive what I say, or even attempt to address it, which is what seems to be the case here. Just flippantly saying that I'm talking without saying much is a bit rude. If you want to dicuss things, you can't just act as though anyone who doesn't agree with you and support your view is wrong, and just talking without saying anything. Don't come in here with a closed mind.
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- Jun 12, 2009
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Foreknowledge is one thing "Predestined" and fore-"ordained to believe" is totally something else.
Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined/proorizo he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.
4309 proorizo: to limit in advance, i.e. (fig.) predetermine
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained/tasso to eternal life believed.
5021 tasso:to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot)
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FreeGrace2
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Excellent!! Just one more reason why one cannot lose their salvation. Paul defined eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23. And the next time he mentioned "gift" was in Rom 11:29 where he said that God's gifts are irrevocable.Is because you cant be "unborn again".
"but what about where James says that my faith is dead".
Ok, then, tomorrow, or in the next few days, stop backsliding and get right.
"but what if i sin willingly/willfully as there is no more sacrifice for my sins"..
Ok, well, be glad you are not a Hebrew..... and be glad that when you heard the Gospel, you didn't sin willingly or willfully and REJECT CHRIST, because if you do that you have sinned willfully away your chance to be saved, similar as those HEBREWS who were being warned not to do it. (in the letter to the HEBREWS)
"but if im seated in Heavenly Places, cant i be unseated and kicked back to earth".
No, but you can ask a stupid question and apparently not realize it.
"But, if im sealed unto the day of redemption by the HS, cant i unseal it with my dead faith or if i backslide until the day i die, and even tell all my friends that i dont believe any more in Jesus"..
No, but you can become so seared in your conscience that you wont ever again feel the feelings or joy of being saved, and will have a completely dead heart towards God, Jesus, and Christianity in general,... however, that does not kick you out of heaven where you are seated with Jesus, it does not take you out of your "in Christ" position as a Child of God....... but it just proves that you are stupid and will suffer the loss of what you could have had here as the best life God had for you as well as your testimony and perhaps you'll get sick and die much younger then you would have......., and you will also suffer the loss of what you could have had as REWARDS at the Judgement seat of Christ".
"So you mean if im born again, i am now the blood bought property of God until he dies, and i cant undo it with my anti-Christian lifestyle or my dead faith or my willful sinning".
EXACTLY.
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- Jun 12, 2009
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Well at least we can both agree on that.
BTW this wasn't addressed to 'your point'. It was addressed to 'Open Heart's point'.
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Open Heart
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HUH????? Am I not Open Heart?Well at least we can both agree on that.
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Open Heart
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Open Heart
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I'm sorry, but I've had 53-11 years to think about this, and I'm unwavering about free will. It is difficult for me to even imagine anyone believing in the same God who believes in a God who wants automatons (difficult but not impossible). It's that big of an issue for me. It could be worse. If you were a 5 point Calvinist, I doubt I would be talking to you.
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nobdysfool
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You may be open-hearted, but this shows an attitude of close-mindedness. Accusing me or anyone else of believing that "God wants automatons" shows a lack of correct knowledge about that which is being opposed, with no real interest in learning anything. Why be here? Calvinists are not the enemy.
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StephanieSomer
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If we can become unsaved, then Christ lied when He said,
"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." John 10:27-30
If the life He gives can be lost, it isn't eternal. It would then be dependent on something other than Christ's work. Such a position degrades the work of Christ and makes it subservient to man's work, since man's work could nullify the work of Christ. In other words, it makes man out to be stronger than God Himself. Said another way, it makes man into a god. Idolatry, well hidden, but not invisible.
"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." John 10:27-30
If the life He gives can be lost, it isn't eternal. It would then be dependent on something other than Christ's work. Such a position degrades the work of Christ and makes it subservient to man's work, since man's work could nullify the work of Christ. In other words, it makes man out to be stronger than God Himself. Said another way, it makes man into a god. Idolatry, well hidden, but not invisible.
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We do have free will. We can either trust in what Jesus did and have faith in that or we can have faith in sin and works of the flesh and believe our own actions save us or not.
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seekingsolace
Bah
Minor changes make no difference to the core structuring that define a person. Would be nice as a mother to choose the sex of your baby, immunity, height, intelligence etc, still prefer a lucky dip.
I can relate to the eye colour changing
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- Apr 30, 2013
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From what I have read and studied at the Lutheran church I've been visiting... it's possible to have a dead faith that doesn't save, despite once having a living faith. the Lutheran pietists especially stressed this. Going to church, hearing the Gospel, receiving the sacraments, talking to God once in a while and trusting in him keeps your faith alive... and the Devil away.
I guess what you believe comes down to which tradition you think best reflects Scriptures as a whole. Because each is a self-contained system. You can't just approach the Bible and expect to find answers all on your own, because the Bible frankly is ambiguous about these sorts of speculative questions. Which is one reason I tend to appreciate the Lutheran doctrine.
I guess what you believe comes down to which tradition you think best reflects Scriptures as a whole. Because each is a self-contained system. You can't just approach the Bible and expect to find answers all on your own, because the Bible frankly is ambiguous about these sorts of speculative questions. Which is one reason I tend to appreciate the Lutheran doctrine.
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FreeGrace2
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I wonder how the Lutheran pietists explain how Paul defined what God's gifts are in 1:11 as spiritual gifits, 3:24, 5:15,16,17 as justification, and 6:23 as eternal life, and then saying that God's gifts are irrevocable in 11:29?
Paul wasn't ambiguous at all about what he meant by 'gift' in his letter to the Roman believers.
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Justification and salvation are gifts, but that doesn't mean we can't take that gift and throw it away or leave it some place neglected. Jesus himself says that some will be overcome by the cares of this world and the seed planted will not grow.
The point of the Pietists is that we should never allow doctrine to overturn the practice of Christian living. And at this point I agree. Good works follow along with a living faith, or else the faith is dead and useless. Otherwise we are believing we are justified by believing in "free grace" or some other doctrine, instead of truly believing we are justified solely by God.
The point of the Pietists is that we should never allow doctrine to overturn the practice of Christian living. And at this point I agree. Good works follow along with a living faith, or else the faith is dead and useless. Otherwise we are believing we are justified by believing in "free grace" or some other doctrine, instead of truly believing we are justified solely by God.
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FreeGrace2
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There are several problems with this view.
First, neither salvation or justification are objects that can be "given away" or "left somewhere", like we do with car keys, phone, etc. Salvation is a concept and involves so many things that are intangible that there is no way any of it can be given away or lost. For example, salvation involves forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43), being declared justified (Rom 5:1), given the right to be the children of God (Jn 1:12) and so on. None of these things can be given away nor lost.
Second, when one believes in Jesus Christ for salvation, we become reborn, regenerated. Because of this regeneration or new birth, we become new creatures (2 Cor 5:17). How can that be given away or lost?
These things are permanent because they aren't objects that can be given away or lost.
Third, there is no Scripture that supports the idea that our salvation or justification or eternal life can be given away or lost.
I believe the idea is just an emotional feeling about it. There is no evidence from the Bible that we have the right or power to give it away or back, or lose it.
This refers to spiritual growth, not loss of salvation.
Wow! That's a new one for me! It is doctrine that should be the FOUNDATION for our Christian living. If the foundation is faulty, how can our Christian living be correct?
Thre is no reason to put quote marks around the phrase free grace because God's grace is totally free. Those who disagree are disagreeing with Scripture. We are saved by grace, which is a gift, per Eph 2:8 and eternal life, which is a gift of God, is free, per Rom 6:23.
From the use of quotes, do you believe that grace isn't free?
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Grace is not "free", no, it never is. Somebody had to pay for it. And thus it is not cheap. I disagree with the tone of the theology you present.
Eternal life is a gift but it still requires a response from the believer for that gift to mean anything. Faith without works is dead.
The epistle to the Hebrews talks about faith being lost through apostasy, and as I said James is clear that the faith we must have is a living faith that does good works.
Eternal life is a gift but it still requires a response from the believer for that gift to mean anything. Faith without works is dead.
The epistle to the Hebrews talks about faith being lost through apostasy, and as I said James is clear that the faith we must have is a living faith that does good works.
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nobdysfool
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the point is, Grace is free to the recipient. What was its cost? the Precious Blood of Jesus. For you to say that Grace is not free, somebody has to pay for it, there's really only two ways to look at it: either you pay for it, or Jesus paid for it. Which would you choose?
Our response is not what gives the gift value and meaning. And you don't "pay for it" by doing good works. Good works, led by the Holy Spirit, are the result and response of one who is saved. Don't confuse that with "works" just to be seen "doing something". Those works have no value. The old joke of "Jesus is coming! Everybody look busy!" does not apply.
If one is truly saved, the works will be there. Even for the man who is saved and in prison, there are God-pleasing things they can do to show forth the Love of God. And that is even though the prisoner is the Lord's free-man.
What amazes me is all this worry and concern over falling away, as though without a lot of effort on our part, the Lord would not be able to hold on to us. As has been pointed out by several here, the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Spend some time thinking about what that means.
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