Pope Francis' Israeli/Palestinian Peace Treaty

I don't know to what end this will ultimately have on a larger recognition of Palestinian independence, but it doesn't hurt.

-CryptoLutheran

History knows that the "palestinians" are really Arabians, and not palestinians at all. They are pawns in a game being played to keep Jews from returning to Israel for many different reasons. Palestinians have a home in the Arabic world, but Arabs refuse to let them return. I learned that from my parents, whom learned that from the mainstream media of yesterday.

Israel is always going to be under attack. The Pope and anyone else is crazy if they think the Palestinians are going to stop.

Thunder Peel said:

Israel is always going to be under attack. The Pope and anyone else is crazy if they think the Palestinians are going to stop.

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People tend to not like it when someone throws you and your family out of your house, which likely has been in your family for generations, and makes it so you are treated, at best, like a second class citizen. Does that justify Palestinian violence against Israelis? No, but it's hardly shocking or surprising that Israel's mistreatment of Palestinians is going to cause a bit of hostility. Violence breeds more violence.

There is no innocent party in the conflict, both sides are guilty of heinous crimes against humanity, and both sides have hundreds of innocent victims. Both sides have spilled blood and have had their blood spilled.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

People tend to not like it when someone throws you and your family out of your house, which likely has been in your family for generations, and makes it so you are treated, at best, like a second class citizen. Does that justify Palestinian violence against Israelis? No, but it's hardly shocking or surprising that Israel's mistreatment of Palestinians is going to cause a bit of hostility. Violence breeds more violence.

There is no innocent party in the conflict, both sides are guilty of heinous crimes against humanity, and both sides have hundreds of innocent victims. Both sides have spilled blood and have had their blood spilled.

-CryptoLutheran

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That's what the Romans did to the Jews,now the Jews are taking back what is rightfully theirs which was given by God. On your second point I can say this,Hamas has consistently attacked Israel when there is a relative peace which has created much of the conflicts.

FRM48 said:

That's what the Romans did to the Jews,now the Jews are taking back what is rightfully theirs which was given by God. On your second point I can say this,Hamas has consistently attacked Israel when there is a relative peace which has created much of the conflicts.

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So because Hamas does bad things, children and the elderly who have no part in that violence should be kicked onto the street?

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

People tend to not like it when someone throws you and your family out of your house, which likely has been in your family for generations, and makes it so you are treated, at best, like a second class citizen. Does that justify Palestinian violence against Israelis? No

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Then perhaps you can also tell us why it is always used as the justification for Palestinian terrorism against Israel.

FRM48 said:

That's what the Romans did to the Jews,now the Jews are taking back what is rightfully theirs which was given by God. On your second point I can say this,Hamas has consistently attacked Israel when there is a relative peace which has created much of the conflicts.

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...the United Nations is God? Because that's who made modern Israel.
tulc(is just sayn')

Palestine is a state
they are a people, they have a homeland, and they have a civil government
is it a perfect nation?
no, but then no nation is perfect

do you agree with the Declaration of Independence?
"...That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

well the people of Palestine do NOT give their consent to the government of Israel
Israeli occupation of Palestine is immoral and unjust, both from a Christian and a Secular POV

"Palestine is a state"

No.

"they are a people,"

No, no more than "Manchesterians", or "New Yorkers", or "People from Stuttgart" are seperate peoples.

"well the people of Palestine do NOT give their consent to the government of Israel"

Do the people of Glasgow, of Austin, Texas, etc, "give their consent" to the governments of the UK and US respectively?

"Israeli occupation of Palestine is immoral and unjust, both from a Christian and a Secular POV"

Before anything can be unjust, it must be. There is no "occupation of Palestine" because there is no "Palestine":

Albion said:

Then perhaps you can also tell us why it is always used as the justification for Palestinian terrorism against Israel.

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Understanding why people take up arms helps understand the underlying sources of conflict--that people use it as a justification for conflict is in error.

I believe that as Christians we should support peace and an end to fighting on both sides.

What I don't think is helpful is speaking about Palestinian terrorism against Israelis and ignoring Israeli terrorism against Palestinians. Both Palestinians and Israelis engage in terrorist activity against the other, both kill innocents on the other side.

Glorifying Israel while demonizing Palestine only serves to justify and exonerate terrorism. Speaking out against both speaks out against both.

-CryptoLutheran

RhaegarTargaryen said:

Do the people of Glasgow, of Austin, Texas, etc, "give their consent" to the governments of the UK and US respectively?
:

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yes
yes they do
they participate in national elections
they follow the Federal laws (more or less)
they send taxes to the federal government
and the they self identify as being citizens of the US and UK respectively
the local government officials cooperate with Federal officials
the local police move aside (albeit reluctantly at times) when a case is judged to be within the jurisdiction of the Federal police forces (such as the FBI)

in the USA we say that we have a government of the people, by the people, and for the people

Like what is now the East Coast of the USA used to be a British Colony
this land belonged to England and we paid taxes and they offered us military protection (French and Indian War)
then, we removed our consent to be governed by the UK, and we became our own country

slight correction, the East Coast of the USA was a collection of colonies, not one single one, slight error on my part, my general point still stands

RhaegarTargaryen said:

"Palestine is a state"

No.

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Depends on who you ask. Nations are regarded as nations when other nations regard them as nations.

Is the Republic of China (Taiwan) a state? Or is it part of the People's Republic of China? Is Armenia a state? It's not recognized as a state by Pakistan. Is North Korea a state? It's not recognized by South Korea or Japan.

Palestine is recognized as a state by these nations (in green):


The UN has granted Palestine "non-member observer" status. And in official UN documents it is designated as the "State of Palestine".

So, it would seem that whether Palestine is a state or not largely depends on who you ask.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

I believe that as Christians we should support peace and an end to fighting on both sides.

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Well, that's a pretty safe statement, but OTOH is it either right or effective to view the aggressor and the victim as equally at fault for there being no peace? The Israelis have been willing to have peace--at great cost and risk to them--while the Palestinians et al have refused...and continued their war against Israel. I am at a loss to see how this translates into "both are to blame" or "no one's right" or other such sophistry as that.

What I don't think is helpful is speaking about Palestinian terrorism against Israelis and ignoring Israeli terrorism against Palestinians.

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Most apologists for the Arab terror organizations don't.

Both Palestinians and Israelis engage in terrorist activity against the other, both kill innocents on the other side.

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How about putting some meat on those bones. We know the Palestinian terror groups and their allies. To start us off, what is the name of the Israeli terror group that lobs thousands of rockets into Gaza, Jordan, and Lebanon on a daily basis, uses human shields, pledges to exterminate all Palestinians--men, women, and children, etc. etc.?

Glorifying Israel while demonizing Palestine only serves

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Just the use of such biased language disqualifies you from being a credible commentator on this matter IMHO. Sorry, but I'll wait for a more temperate poster to respond.

.

ViaCrucis said:

Depends on who you ask. Nations are regarded as nations when other nations regard them as nations.

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Simplification to the point of being a lie, and you know it.

No message.

RhaegarTargaryen said:

Simplification to the point of being a lie, and you know it.

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Perhaps you could explain how it's a lie instead of just accusing me of telling a lie.


-CryptoLutheran

Albion said:

The Israelis have been willing to have peace

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wow, you mean those in power want to preserve the status quo?

there is a difference between "peace" and "quiet"
Israel wants "quiet" they want to be able to ignore the human and political rights of Palestinians and not be criticized
the only peace we will get is with a two state solution