the Lord Jesus ..is fully God fully man ,...but a question

he-man

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I have no interest in discussing your unorthodox beliefs, and I consider your suggestion that Christianity is "pagan" to be offensive and in breach of the forum rules.
Then practice to relieve the original doctrine from the stranglehold of a theology and a habit of religious thought which are to be traced to primitive paganism. The old gods have come to church; and, their presence beginning at long last to be detected, the day will soon arrive when either they or the congregation must leave and therefore the first thing to be done is to abandon the territory which can be no longer held; but it will gradually be seen that in throwing over certain time-honoured beliefs my purpose is to present a Christian frontage which shall be impregnable. Paganism in Our Christianity
 
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Architeuthus

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in throwing over certain time-honoured beliefs

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel — not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.The Epistle to the Galatians
 
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Grafted In

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I'd just like to toss in a couple of things that came to my mind as I read through this thread.
First of all, in Mark 16:31 the Bible says:
And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

Perhaps this is a very small thing but conception occures in the phylopian tubes, not the womb. A clue? I don't know...just tossing it out there.
Secondly, it occured to me when Adam was mentioned that Eve was formed from one of his ribs. Bones are where blood is manufactured.

Sorry folks. That's "fallopian" tubes. I'm a lousy speller and when it comes to anatomy usually the "f" sound is "ph". I figured I'd impress you with my scientific knowlege.:rolleyes:
 
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Architeuthus

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I'd just like to toss in a couple of things that came to my mind as I read through this thread.
First of all, in Mark 16:31 the Bible says:
And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

Actually, the verse is Luke 1:31, and it says καὶ ἰδοὺ συλλήμψῃ ἐν γαστρὶ καὶ τέξῃ υἱόν, καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν -- you shall conceive in your gastri. The Greek word (see also LSJ) covers "stomach," "belly," "womb," and other organs in that part of the body. The English word "gastric" comes from this Greek word.
 
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he-man

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Actually, the verse is Luke 1:31, and it says καὶ ἰδοὺ συλλήμψῃ ἐν γαστρὶ καὶ τέξῃ υἱόν, καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν -- you shall conceive in your gastri. The Greek word covers "stomach," "belly," "womb," and other organs in that part of the body.
G3388 μητραν matrix; compare [G1064: womb]; G2836 κοιλιάς κοιλιά belly; womb
 
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Alithis

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G3388 μητραν matrix; compare [G1064: womb]; G2836 κοιλιάς κοιλιά belly; womb
either way, what, how, when, where ,.. a virgin gave birth to a son.. the sign was foretold , the sign happened

JEsus is Lord :)
 
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he-man

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either way, what, how, when, where ,.. a virgin gave birth to a son.. the sign was foretold , the sign happened

JEsus is Lord :)
Funny, but Jesus said no sign would be given. Mar 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
 
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Alithis

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Funny, but Jesus said no sign would be given. Mar 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
of course he did .. because so many had already been given .. like you they would not listen to the signs ,they ignored the prophets and imposed their own teachings adding to the law to do so (even though God clearly forbade that through moses ) and even killed the messengers ... including the lord JEsus . but he rose again 3 days later .
he was born of a virgin -just as the prophets foretold . she was just a normal woman born of flesh .. while he was born of the Holy Ghost . the spoken word of God .. made flesh .
but of course some people don't believe that ,they are what are called ..unbelievers .. do love this english language .:)
 
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enigmadi

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edit note :AS the OP i feel my question has been already satisfactorily addressed. so I open the thread to Digress in what ever way it does.
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after a recent misunderstanding i decided it would be interesting to look further into the question.
But as the question risks challenging (sort of) the Nicene creed, though its not my intent to , I decided to ask it here .(hope its the right place )
please note-I repeat - I in no way intend to disagree with the Nicene creed .that is Not my goal at all.

my question is .. -As the lord Jesus was born of the Spirit and not of the flesh .and formed in the womb of a virgin.so excluding the blood of Adam from playing any part in that process .
did the lord God miraculously fertilize an egg of mary's ? or did the lord God fully become flesh in her womb -independent of any human input ( as he had no need of such )

this is an honest question im not hereto argue it one way or the other but i will push back at answers to test them ..
- im just like that -it does not mean im unwilling to accept the answers ,only that i will push the wall ,to see if it is stable so to speak . :)
I think it is a good question. I believe Jesus was both God and man, and I think a case can be made that the Holy Spirit "fertilized" one of Mary's eggs.
 
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Alithis

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I think it is a good question. I believe Jesus was both God and man, and I think a case can be made that the Holy Spirit "fertilized" one of Mary's eggs.
:) yeah ..my understanding is now leaning that way . but still holding the stance that he need not have done so to become "fully" man .. juts as adam needed no egg to be fertilized to become fully man . -if you get my drift
 
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he-man

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of course he did .. because so many had already been given .. like you they would not listen to the signs ,they ignored the prophets and imposed their own teachings adding to the law to do so (even though God clearly forbade that through moses ) and even killed the messengers ... including the lord JEsus . but he rose again 3 days later .
he was born of a virgin -just as the prophets foretold . she was just a normal woman born of flesh .. while he was born of the Holy Ghost . the spoken word of God .. made flesh .
but of course some people don't believe that ,they are what are called ..unbelievers .. do love this english language .:)
Will I become pregnant since I have received the Holy Spirit? If I have the Holy Spirit how can anyone else have it if it is a person ?
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
 
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Alithis

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Will I become pregnant since I have received the Holy Spirit? If I have the Holy Spirit how can anyone else have it if it is a person ?
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
hmm you really limit god dont you ( and quote versus to the extreme end of out of context) you actually seem to think Who is spirit ..is only one place at one time ..
it seems on the surface that the"god" you speak of is different to the God i speak of .. the God i speak of "can do all things and with him - nothing is impossible "
so ;) i'll stick with mine ..
 
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he-man

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hmm you really limit god dont you ( and quote versus to the extreme end of out of context) you actually seem to think Who is spirit ..is only one place at one time .. it seems on the surface that the"god" you speak of is different to the God i speak of .. the God i speak of "can do all things and with him - nothing is impossible " so ;) i'll stick with mine ..
Exactly, because the Holy Spirit is not a person but is what flows from the Eminence of God's power. The New Testament writers do not witness to the Holy Spirit as fully and clearly as they do to the Son.PART ONE..We do not intend to seek in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, what is not there, a formal statement of trinitarian doctrine.
PART ONE The Triune God by E J Fortman Page 32
 
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Alithis

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Exactly, because the Holy Spirit is not a person but is what flows from the Eminence of God's power. The New Testament writers do not witness to the Holy Spirit as fully and clearly as they do to the Son.PART ONE..We do not intend to seek in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, what is not there, a formal statement of trinitarian doctrine.
PART ONE The Triune God by E J Fortman Page 32
hear me siigh .... Well, i did say the thread was free to diversify.

but i'm not going to debate trinitarianism with you for one simply reason.
i believe the term is merely mans extremely limited effort to comprehend the incomprehensible.
and you don't comprehend God it any better then anyone else . :)
 
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he-man

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hear me siigh .... Well, i did say the thread was free to diversify.

but i'm not going to debate trinitarianism with you for one simply reason.
i believe the term is merely mans extremely limited effort to comprehend the incomprehensible.
and you don't comprehend God it any better then anyone else . :)
Rhema (ῥῆμα in Greek) literally means an "utterance" or "thing said" in Greek. The Greek noun ῥῆμα "saying, utterance, verb, word" is analyzed as consisting of the root ἐρ-/ῥε- (er-/rhe-) "say" (cf. εἴρω "I say"; ἐρῶ "I will say") and the suffix -μα (-ma), a suffix used to form nouns from verbs. In the New Testament, this noun is used in such instances as 1 Peter 1:25: “τὸ δὲ ῥῆμα Κυρίου μένει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα” i.e. “the Lord's utterance/saying remains forever”, or more commonly, "the word of the Lord endureth for ever". It has nothing to with Jesus, the anointed, as anything other than the sayings of God.
Exactly, because the Holy Spirit is not a person but is what flows from the Eminence of God's power. The New Testament writers do not witness to the Holy Spirit as fully and clearly as they do to the Son.PART ONE..We do not intend to seek in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, what is not there, a formal statement of trinitarian doctrine.
PART ONE The Triune God by E J Fortman Page 32
 
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edit note :AS the OP i feel my question has been already satisfactorily addressed. so I open the thread to Digress in what ever way it does.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-As the lord Jesus was born of the Spirit and not of the flesh .and formed in the womb of a virgin.so excluding the blood of Adam from playing any part in that process .
did the lord God miraculously fertilize an egg of mary's ? or did the lord God fully become flesh in her womb -independent of any human input ( as he had no need of such )


There is a significant parallel between Gen 1:2 and Luke 1:35.

Gen 1:2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the
face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the
waters.

Luke 1:35 ...The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most
High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy,
the Son of God.


The concepts suggested by the phrases "Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters" and "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most
High will overshadow you" are strikingly similar. The word void in Genesis 1 conveys the meaning of barrenness and barrenness also represents the state of Mary's virginal womb.


The words "hovering" and "overshadow" suggest the action of a hen brooding over her eggs so that they will yield life as the Holy Spirit brooded over the barren void so that it would be able to give life without seed and over Mary so that she would also give life without seed.

Another striking similarity is God's repeated statement in the creation hymn of Gen 1, "Let there be..." and Mary's statement "Let it be..."(Luke 1:38)

I believe the similarities in Luke's account are intentional.

jim
 
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he-man

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More recent scholars find no evidence in the Old Testament that any sacred writer believed in or suspected the existence of a divine paternity and filiation within the Godhead itself.
He uses the Aramaic word Abba that was too familiar to be used in Jewish prayer.1 He speaks differently of the Father in relation to Himself and to His disciples: 'my heavenly Father' and `your Father who is in heaven' (Mt 15.13; 5.44-45).
In Matthew and Luke we hear Him say: `no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him' (Mt 11.27; Lk 10.22).
At times in the Synoptics this Son ship of Jesus involves some subordination of Jesus to the Father. There were things that the Son did not know: 'But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father' (Mk 13.32).
Again in Mark we hear Jesus saying: 'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone' (10.18).
On the kenosis whereby ‘Who, being in the figure1 of God, thought it not grasping2 to lead3 to be
similar4 to God: 7 But himself, he was completely lacking5, and clinged6 to the figure of a
slave, and became in likeness of men: (Phil 2.6, 7).’ [1 * Greek μορφή figure 2 * Greek αρπαγμον grasp 3 * Greek ηγεομαι ηγούμαι to lead 4 * Greek ίσα, ίσος ίσιος be similar to 5 * Greek κενωσεν completely lacking 6 * Greek λαβη λαβων cling to]
there is only ‘One who is Good’, it becomes clear that Paul views Christ both as subordinate and only to be similar to God the Father which is fulfilled in the purpose of the visible creation that results from it (Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. ) .
Paul has many triadic texts and in some of them he seems to present Christ and the Spirit as distinct from one another and from the Father and on the same divine level with the Father. He has no formal Trinitarian doctrine and no clear-cut realization of a Trinitarian problem. CHAPTER TWO
The New Testament Witness to God, Jesus as Lord, Summary,
 
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More recent scholars find no evidence in the Old Testament that any sacred writer believed in or suspected the existence of a divine paternity and filiation within the Godhead itself.
He uses the Aramaic word Abba that was too familiar to be used in Jewish prayer.1 He speaks differently of the Father in relation to Himself and to His disciples: 'my heavenly Father' and `your Father who is in heaven' (Mt 15.13; 5.44-45).
In Matthew and Luke we hear Him say: `no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him' (Mt 11.27; Lk 10.22).
At times in the Synoptics this Son ship of Jesus involves some subordination of Jesus to the Father. There were things that the Son did not know: 'But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father' (Mk 13.32).
Again in Mark we hear Jesus saying: 'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone' (10.18).
On the kenosis whereby ‘Who, being in the figure1 of God, thought it not grasping2 to lead3 to be
similar4 to God: 7 But himself, he was completely lacking5, and clinged6 to the figure of a
slave, and became in likeness of men: (Phil 2.6, 7).’ [1 * Greek μορφή figure 2 * Greek αρπαγμον grasp 3 * Greek ηγεομαι ηγούμαι to lead 4 * Greek ίσα, ίσος ίσιος be similar to 5 * Greek κενωσεν completely lacking 6 * Greek λαβη λαβων cling to]
there is only ‘One who is Good’, it becomes clear that Paul views Christ both as subordinate and only to be similar to God the Father which is fulfilled in the purpose of the visible creation that results from it (Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. ) .
Paul has many triadic texts and in some of them he seems to present Christ and the Spirit as distinct from one another and from the Father and on the same divine level with the Father. He has no formal Trinitarian doctrine and no clear-cut realization of a Trinitarian problem. CHAPTER TWO
The New Testament Witness to God, Jesus as Lord, Summary,

The Council of Nicaea addressed the issue of Arius' neo-Platonist influenced notion of the Son being of similar essence with the Father rather than of the same essence. The seven great councils were convened to address the exact issues which you raise and they decided that you are wrong.

As John tells us, the Word was with God in the beginning and the word was God.

I see absolutely no reason to try to resurrect the Arian heresy and debate it.

The Father is God.
The Son is God
The Spirit is God.

God is one and we experience Him in three hypostases.

jim
 
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he-man

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The Council of Nicaea addressed the issue of Arius' neo-Platonist influenced notion of the Son being of similar essence with the Father rather than of the same essence. The seven great councils were convened to address the exact issues which you raise and they decided that you are wrong.jim
Shortly after Nicea a powerful Anti-Nicene group developed which for years refused to accept the homoousion as the test of orthodoxy. Against these Anti-Nicene a smaller group, headed by Athanasius, battled tenaciously for the Nicene homoousion and put forth a sound Trinitarian doctrine. But this doctrine left unsolved many questions about the divine persons, their definition and distinction and relation to one another and to the godhead.
The Council of Nicea had merely declared, 'And we believe in the Holy Spirit.' Augustine's theology left many questions unanswered: What is the nature of the two processions? How do they differ? Why are there only two processions and only three persons?
What, how many years after the death of Christ did it take to fool people in the belief of a polythestic God intead on the one Paul taught?
Between Augustine in the 5th century and Anselm in the 12th, two men stood out for their Trinitarian contributions, Boethius (d. 524) and Eriugena (d. 877 c.). In the 13th century Dominicans and Franciscans .
There were three great Trinitarian councils in the 13th and 15th centuries. In the 17th century Protestant theologians .
Kant, by his Critiques, put an end to the Enlightenment; he rejected both orthodox and rationalist views of religion, regarded the doctrine of the Trinity as of no practical value, and opened the way to the modern theological mood.
We do not intend to seek in the Old Testament and in the New Testament what is not there, a formal statement of Trinitarian doctrine. More recent scholars find no evidence in the Old Testament that any sacred writer believed in or suspected the existence of a divine paternity and filiation within the Godhead itself.
The word of Yahweh effects what it signifies : 'so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose' (Is 55.11).1 The word of Yahweh is a creative agent, and it is fulfilled in the visible creation that results from it (Genesis ch. 1). Nature as well as history is a word that reveals Yahweh who speaks it, but the word of Yahweh is also the written law.
Nowhere in the Old Testament is there any solid evidence that a sacred writer viewed the word of Yahweh as a personal being distinct from Yahweh, and thus had intimations of plurality within the Godhead. The word of Yahweh is only Yahweh acting, or the means by which He revealed His will to men. It has been much discussed down the centuries. Jewish speculation saw in it the affirmation of the pre-existence of the Law, which was easily identified with the wisdom of God. The Arians found in it a strong argument to show that Christ was but a creature.' The people of the Old Testament, however, did not see wisdom as a person to be addressed. Today scholars agree with them and see in wisdom only God's own activity, or an attribute of God, or just a personification, or an extension of the divine personality.
But to the people of the Old Testament the wisdom of God was never a person to be addressed but only a personification of an attribute or activity of Yahweh.
PART ONE The Biblical Witness to God
 
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