Why do some want to believe in Purgatory - even though it is against the Bible?

Apr 21, 2015
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If we take the Protestant argument that the faith that saves is a lively faith, the problem with going with "the Bible only" is that there may be things that God has "prepared for us to do" (to look at it from the Reformed perspective), that the Bible is not going to be much help at all.
I cannot think of anything the Bible has left out in regards to works such as loving one another, edification of persons and the assembly of believers. Good works are the fruit of the spirit, not a doctrine but an actual facet of saving belief in the persons life.
 
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Albion

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I cannot think of anything the Bible has left out in regards to works such as loving one another, edification of persons and the assembly of believers. Good works are the fruit of the spirit, not a doctrine but an actual facet of saving belief in the persons life.

Of course. And what are we supposed to think the Sermon on the Mount was all about if not specific admonitions relating to how people should live, act, love, etc.? And that's just for starters!
 
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FireDragon76

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I cannot think of anything the Bible has left out in regards to works such as loving one another, edification of persons and the assembly of believers. Good works are the fruit of the spirit, not a doctrine but an actual facet of saving belief in the persons life.

Yes, I believe the fruit of the Spirit are those things too but the Church has a magisterial role to teach the faithful as well (and this is not true just for Roman catholics). There are some moral issues that are not addressed directly by the Bible, for instance. And there are some things the Bible never really touches on in depth, for instance, that a person might want to understand a Christian basis for. Such as, can a Christian do yoga? Should we use candles in churches? Can a Christian seek the intercession of a saint? Is it right to conceive a child through artificial means? What is the Christian thing to do in terms of global warming or debt forgiveness to African nations? All these things require answers if we are to fulfill the commandment to love God and love our neighbor. And it is here reason and tradition also have a place alongside the Scriptures, because the Scriptures speak little or none to these issues.
 
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Root of Jesse

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So Catholics have a different set of rules to other believers?
Obviously. We must worship God by attending Mass on Sundays and feast days, including the feast of our Lord's birth. Many Protestants don't even bother with Christmas 'services'. We also are a pro-life Church, and a Church of marriage, which is between one man and one woman. And lots of other things, too.
Indeed the universal Church of believers. Are you in a position to speak of that which God views as His or not?
Which is the Catholic Church.
I disagree.

Just defending believers around the world you claim are not part of the Church.
I don't make any such claim. I believe you are part of the Church if you've been validly baptized.
 
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Apr 21, 2015
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Obviously. We must worship God by attending Mass on Sundays and feast days, including the feast of our Lord's birth. Many Protestants don't even bother with Christmas 'services'. We also are a pro-life Church, and a Church of marriage, which is between one man and one woman. And lots of other things, too.
That still doesn't answer whether or not Catholics are under a different set of rules for salvation.
Which is the Catholic Church.
So you do feel that you speak on Gods behalf.
I don't make any such claim. I believe you are part of the Church if you've been validly baptized.
What would be validly, by the Catholic Church? ;)
 
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Albion

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Yes, I believe the fruit of the Spirit are those things too but the Church has a magisterial role to teach the faithful as well (and this is not true just for Roman catholics). There are some moral issues that are not addressed directly by the Bible, for instance. And there are some things the Bible never really touches on in depth, for instance, that a person might want to understand a Christian basis for. Such as, can a Christian do yoga? Should we use candles in churches?
These are supposed to be moral issues that a Bible-believing Protestant wanting to know the right way to love his neighbor wouldn't know??
 
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Root of Jesse

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That still doesn't answer whether or not Catholics are under a different set of rules for salvation.
I guess you forgot where I said that baptism saves you. But keeping God's commandments is important, dontcha think?
So you do feel that you speak on Gods behalf.
Not me. The Church.
What would be validly, by the Catholic Church? ;)
In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
 
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Apr 21, 2015
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I guess you forgot where I said that baptism saves you. But keeping God's commandments is important, dontcha think?
You avoid some of these questions like the plague. Ok, let's bring the verses back up.
SS: I am not asking if the Assumption of Mary is Biblical, what I am asking is - do you assert that accepting that is a prerequisite for salvation.
RoJ: I never said that. It is for Catholics.
SS: That still doesn't answer whether or not Catholics are under a different set of rules for salvation.
So, are Catholics under a different set of rules for salvation? since as you confirmed - that is regarded as a prerequisite to salvation.
I don't make any such claim. I believe you are part of the Church if you've been validly baptized.
A baptized person is part of the Church you say, but not the Catholic Church.
 
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Root of Jesse

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You avoid some of these questions like the plague. Ok, let's bring the verses back up.



So, are Catholics under a different set of rules for salvation? since as you confirmed - that is regarded as a prerequisite to salvation.
How many times must I say "NO!"????? Read for comprehension, and stop reading into things what wasn't written!
A baptized person is part of the Church you say, but not the Catholic Church.
To quote our Lord "You have said so." I never said "not the Catholic Church". The Catholic Church is the ONLY Church Christ instituted.
 
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How many times must I say "NO!"????? Read for comprehension, and stop reading into things what wasn't written!
So either you have a different set of rules for salvation or not. If Catholics need to believe one thing for salvation, while non-Catholics do not, that is....a different set of rules. Unless you are asserting that non-Catholics are not saved.
To quote our Lord "You have said so." I never said "not the Catholic Church". The Catholic Church is the ONLY Church Christ instituted.
I'll take that as a yes. A very concerning point of view I must say.
 
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Root of Jesse

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So either you have a different set of rules for salvation or not. If Catholics need to believe one thing for salvation, while non-Catholics do not, that is....a different set of rules. Unless you are asserting that non-Catholics are not saved.
Baptism is what saves you. Everything else is extra. Our dogmas and doctrines must be believed by Catholics. In other words, to be Catholic, you must believe them.
I'll take that as a yes. A very concerning point of view I must say.
Take it any way you want. We don't exclude you, you exclude yourselves. I'm pretty well done with you.
 
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Baptism is what saves you. Everything else is extra. Our dogmas and doctrines must be believed by Catholics. In other words, to be Catholic, you must believe them.
Which is a different set of rules for salvation...

So Baptism saves you, only if you believe the dogmas - which are apparently necessary for salvation. Dogmatic faith such as the Assumption of Mary, and baptism save you... oh let's not forget belief in Jesus Christ as our savior.
Take it any way you want. We don't exclude you, you exclude yourselves. I'm pretty well done with you.
Actually you are. Other Churches view the body of believers as universal. We don't exclude ourselves, you do. In addition you are showing partiality. Be done with me my friend.

Galatians 3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus - unless you are not part of the Catholic Church.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Which is a different set of rules for salvation...
No, it's not different. Just deeper.
So Baptism saves you, only if you believe the dogmas - which are apparently necessary for salvation. Dogmatic faith such as the Assumption of Mary, and baptism save you... oh let's not forget belief in Jesus Christ as our savior.
That's your words added, not mine.
Actually you are. Other Churches view the body of believers as universal. We don't exclude ourselves, you do. In addition you are showing partiality. Be done with me my friend.

Galatians 3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus - unless you are not part of the Catholic Church.
In your own parlance, you'd like to believe that. But it's not true. I am, now, done.
 
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FireDragon76

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Since Vatican II, Roman Catholics use the term "Seperated Brethren" to described Protestants. Meaning that they recognize them as part of the Church invisibly, but distanced from the visible institutions that are part of the Church. They do not consider Protestant rites graceless, and recognize the validity of Protestant baptisms that are Trinitarian.

In the Western Christian tradition, interpreted through St. Augustine's understanding of the sacraments, any baptism that is done with the Trinitarian formula following Jesus commandment, is considered valid.
 
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FireDragon76

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Pretty condescending or patronizing, wouldn't you say?

No, I don't see how its condescending. It's an honest and charitable viewpoint: from their perspective, Protestant churches do not have all the marks of a proper church. And yet they acknowledge Protestants as being invisibly tied to the Church through baptism. They also don't believe Protestant rites are graceless.

This is better than what some Orthodox believe, that Protestant churches are graceless and our baptisms are not true baptisms.
 
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Albion

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No, I don't see how its condescending.
Each of us can make our own decision on that, but I consider it condescending, just like calling non-Roman Catholic churches "ecclesial communities" or some other version of that term. No one is saying that they have to CONSIDER other Christian churches to be genuine or valid, but this is what's done in public at the same time as the Vatican is pretending to be interested in church reunificaftion. :doh:
 
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