Looking at: "Let your women keep silence in the churches"

peebly63 said:

I'm not interested in what you can argue that you see going on in the world as the next thing you know we will have all manner of depravity infesting the word and the believers.

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If we look at the numbers then it's undeniably a gender issue. Address this gender issue and you will also address depravity issues. Nations who did it achieved spectacular results over time.

We have a solution that works and here you are downplaying the facts, the truth.. Which side are you on? The terrorists??? I hope not!

peebly63 said:

if you remember according to the bible it was eve who was deceived perhaps that set a series of events off...

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You call the knowledge of good and evil a deception?

Remember that Jesus also taught things which are good and exposed the works of evil (John 7:7). Jesus practically taught us the knowledge of which is good (and we should fulfill) and the knowledge of evil (of which must be exposed to warn others)

Old Testament is Judeo-Christian. Judaism directly came from Pharisee whose enemy is Jesus and still is today - the enemy (serpent) of my enemy (Pharisees) is my friend.

timewerx said:

If we look at the numbers then it's undeniably a gender issue. Address this gender issue and you will also address depravity issues. Nations who did it achieved spectacular results over time.

We have a solution that works and here you are downplaying the facts, the truth.. Which side are you on? The terrorists??? I hope not!





You call the knowledge of good and evil a deception?

Remember that Jesus also taught things which are good and exposed the works of evil (John 7:7). Jesus practically taught us the knowledge of which is good (and we should fulfill) and the knowledge of evil (of which must be exposed to warn others)

Old Testament is Judeo-Christian. Judaism directly came from Pharisee whose enemy is Jesus and still is today - the enemy (serpent) of my enemy (Pharisees) is my friend.

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ha ha if you start choosing what you want and don't want to believe is right in the bible you are just inventing your own religion, good luck with that.

I believe God is all knowing, all powerful what he wanted in his word will be there.

it is the word of God and stands as such as i said you make your own religion fine.

changing the bible with today's standards is not what i think God had in mind.

razzelflabben said:

Husbands are to Love their wife, this Love is one of putting them above the needs, desires, wants of the husband. That doesn't sound subservient at all....we could go on and on, but the question remains, your premise appears to take a small portion of the whole teaching and from that portion condemn the whole. That would mean that you do not think that woman should be equal...loved...treated with

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Parents also love and place the welfare of their children above theirs but children are clearly subservient to parents. Children don't make the decisions but parents.

I think that is the same context we find in the Bible in regards to how married couples should treat each other.

Same thing why women should not preach according to the Bible because women are treated in a similar manner to children - not as smart as adult men. Sugar coat as you wish but I see discrimination.



I know the whole exercise. I used to believe the whole Bible is the infallible word of god. I used to be a denominational Christian for 20 years and read the Bible through and through several times.

Three years ago, we would be agreeing in this same discussion. I don't condemn the whole Bible, just parts of it.

peebly63 said:

changing the bible with today's standards is not what i think God had in mind.

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You might be surprised to know that the Church did change their interpretation of scriptures throughout history, often when it conflicted with scientific discoveries.

By now we should have figured out that many scriptural interpretations are likely to be the result of ignorance than actual divine guidance. Which is why the powers of observation which God gave us trumps in the end, always.

God gave us a brain, and the fives senses for a good reason and certainly not to waste them blindly following teachings without using our head.

timewerx said:

You might be surprised to know that the Church did change their interpretation of scriptures throughout history, often when it conflicted with scientific discoveries.

By now we should have figured out that many scriptural interpretations are likely to be the result of ignorance than actual divine guidance.

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so you have decide which parts of the bible you agree with by your personal choice, your religion, your way.

scientific discoveries have a habit of changing too.

I think an all powerful, all knowing God will get what he wants in to his word.

If you think compromise is the way God intended you go ahead, if you think what man says holds more weight than God's word you carry on.

timewerx said:

Parents also love and place the welfare of their children above theirs but children are clearly subservient to parents. Children don't make the decisions but parents.

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in scripture, children are to obey, wife's are not told to obey, they are told to work with their husband. Same love, totally different roles.

I think that is the same context we find in the Bible in regards to how married couples should treat each other.

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So you refuse to answer how you feel justified to make judgment calls on partial teachings...okay, that means anything goes I guess...be prepared for an interesting discussion. You would have been much better off if you have answered the question. Just saying...

Same thing why women should not preach according to the Bible because women are treated in a similar manner to children - not as smart as adult men. Sugar coat as you wish but I see discrimination.

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except when we allow translation to rule our understanding of the passage in question, it says that women are not to usurp their right to teaching over the men...iow's where they are allowed to teach and should teach, they are not to do so in an aggressive, manner that belittles men and makes them subservient. HUMMMM....I wonder if the world shows us any evidence that ruling without aggressive fighting is beneficial to society? Naw, you have already condemned the teaching because you only read part of the teaching, so I guess that means that you are wrong because you don't understand that word translations are not as simple as some pretend.

I know the whole exercise. I used to believe the whole Bible is the infallible word of god. I used to be a denominational Christian for 20 years and read the Bible through and through several times.

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I said nothing about infallible, your reading into my question what is not there, assumably because you are afraid I have some hidden agenda...which I do not. I simply want to know what makes you think you have the right to judge anything or anyone on a partial teaching. Knowing why you feel justified to do this, will give me insight into how to talk to you in a manner you can comprehend...nothing more, nothing less.

Three years ago, we would be agreeing in this same discussion. I don't condemn the whole Bible, just parts of it.

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You judged the bible based on partial teachings, in order for our communication to be effective I need to understand why you feel justified to do so....nothing more nothing less.

wives are to submit to their husbands in everything. Very few of them do however.

eph 5. 21 Submitting yourselves one to another in reverence of Christ,-- 22 Ye wives, unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord, 23 Because, a husband, is the head of his wife, as, the Christ also, is the head of the assembly,

Rotherham) 1 Peter 3:1 In like manner, ye wives,--submitting yourselves unto your own husbands; in order that, if any are not yielding unto the word, through their wives behaviour, they may, without the word, be won

(Rotherham) Ephesians 5:24 Nevertheless, as, the assembly, submitteth herself unto the Christ, so, the wives, unto their husbands, in everything:

wives are suppose to submit to everything us husbands say. Unless it causes them to disobey the word of god. One can't submit to another person without obedience. that's fer sure.

the husband says. "wife get in the car were going to go shopping." the wife says "I submit to your desire to go to shopping, but I ain't gonna obey you.."" How much sense does that make? about as much sense as 3 is one.

2ducklow said:

wives are to submit to their husbands in everything. Very few of them do however.

eph 5. 21 Submitting yourselves one to another in reverence of Christ,-- 22 Ye wives, unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord, 23 Because, a husband, is the head of his wife, as, the Christ also, is the head of the assembly,

Rotherham) 1 Peter 3:1 In like manner, ye wives,--submitting yourselves unto your own husbands; in order that, if any are not yielding unto the word, through their wives behaviour, they may, without the word, be won

(Rotherham) Ephesians 5:24 Nevertheless, as, the assembly, submitteth herself unto the Christ, so, the wives, unto their husbands, in everything:

wives are suppose to submit to everything us husbands say. Unless it causes them to disobey the word of god. One can't submit to another person without obedience. that's fer sure.

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actually, translation wise, submit can mean one of two things, in military terms it means to put in order, in non military terms it means to work with. This meaning is consistent with both Gen. and Sarah who is upheld as a woman in submission. Thus if we allow scripture to interpret scripture, it means that the woman is to work with, not against the husband, just like we are to work with Christ, not against Christ.

the husband says. "wife get in the car were going to go shopping." the wife says "I submit to your desire to go to shopping, but I ain't gonna obey you.."" How much sense does that make? about as much sense as 3 is one.

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well, when we look at translation from the original as well as the totality of scripture, obedience never enters the picture when we are talking about the husband and wife.

razzelflabben said:

actually, translation wise, submit can mean one of two things, in military terms it means to put in order, in non military terms it means to work with. This meaning is consistent with both Gen. and Sarah who is upheld as a woman in submission. Thus if we allow scripture to interpret scripture, it means that the woman is to work with, not against the husband, just like we are to work with Christ, not against Christ.
well, when we look at translation from the original as well as the totality of scripture, obedience never enters the picture when we are talking about the husband and wife.

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well, the way it works in practice is this. I'm the boss in the family, but I love my wife and we almost always do what she wants because I want to make her happy. So if I want to go to the store and she wants to go somewhere else, I usually do what she wants cause I love her. So that's ok with me just as long as she knows I'm the boss.

2ducklow said:

well, the way it works in practice is this. I'm the boss in the family, but I love my wife and we almost always do what she wants because I want to make her happy. So if I want to go to the store and she wants to go somewhere else, I usually do what she wants cause I love her. So that's ok with me just as long as she knows I'm the boss.

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I would assume you and your wife make the big decisions together.

You and your wife are doing the right thing. At least according to my beliefs.

You being the "boss" is merely just a label than being actually the boss. But your wife is disobeying scriptures if we take the beliefs of mainstream Christianity.

timewerx said:

I would assume you and your wife make the big decisions together.

You and your wife are doing the right thing. At least according to my beliefs.

You being the "boss" is merely just a label than being actually the boss. But your wife is disobeying scriptures if we take the beliefs of mainstream Christianity.

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Your assumptions are irrelevant as any boss has the right to defer or ask opinion but at the end of the day they have the decision to make.

the scripture is clear on obeying, you either accept or reject it.

2ducklow said:

well, the way it works in practice is this. I'm the boss in the family, but I love my wife and we almost always do what she wants because I want to make her happy. So if I want to go to the store and she wants to go somewhere else, I usually do what she wants cause I love her. So that's ok with me just as long as she knows I'm the boss.

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that may be how it works for you, but that isn't the biblical idea of submission, which I thought was what we are talking about.

razzelflabben said:

Quoting passages we are all very familiar with doesn't tell us what you see in the passage, even highlighting doesn't help much, can you elaborate please? Thanks in advance.

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Well, it depends your self-imposed worship or on loving your wife as much as you would your own life.....Col 2:23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Respect is true love! and not use masturbation to accomplish what mutual intercourse can do for both of you, both verbally and sexually. Not to be physically abusive and also verbally taunting to each other.
1Co 7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
Then, perhaps you may be found like Abraham as being heirs together of the grace of life....Ro 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Genesis 15:6.; Galatians 3:6

1Pe 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

he-man said:

Well, it depends your self-imposed worship or on loving your wife as much as you would your own life.....Col 2:23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Respect is true love!

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true Love is so much more than respect. I'm not even sure where to begin when someone says something like that.

and not use masturbation to accomplish what mutual intercourse can do for both of you, both verbally and sexually. Not to be physically abusive and also verbally taunting to each other.
1Co 7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
Then, perhaps you may be found like Abraham as being heirs together of the grace of life....Ro 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Genesis 15:6.; Galatians 3:6

1Pe 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

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I'm curious why you seem to be equating Love and respect/submission to sexual relations?

razzelflabben said:

true Love is so much more than respect. I'm not even sure where to begin when someone says something like that. I'm curious why you seem to be equating Love and respect/submission to sexual relations?

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There are two kinds of intercourse, by word and by deeds, the joining of two as one.

Gettingtalents said:

Thoughts?​

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I think it could be better if men and women are silent and listen what Jesus told as God had commanded him to speak

…But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers. Call no man on the earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven. Neither be called masters, for one is your master, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you will be your servant….
Matt. 23:4-12

…For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. …
John 12:49-50

I think the problem is that “Christians” think they can take the position that is not theirs. It is not about women or men, but about righteous King. I recommend people to follow Jesus rather than any other leader or other person who wants to lead in this world.

God’s prophets speak what God has given to them. They are not speaking their own. Women can do that also according to the Bible. But it is not same as woman leading, because she is not speaking her own, but what God gave. I think it could be good if men also humble themselves and let God’s word be the king.

he-man said:

There are two kinds of intercourse, by word and by deeds, the joining of two as one.

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I was referring to Love not intercourse, but okay I guess...

1213 said:

​

I think it could be better if men and women are silent and listen what Jesus told as God had commanded him to speak

…But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers. Call no man on the earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven. Neither be called masters, for one is your master, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you will be your servant….
Matt. 23:4-12

…For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. …
John 12:49-50

I think the problem is that “Christians” think they can take the position that is not theirs. It is not about women or men, but about righteous King. I recommend people to follow Jesus rather than any other leader or other person who wants to lead in this world.

God’s prophets speak what God has given to them. They are not speaking their own. Women can do that also according to the Bible. But it is not same as woman leading, because she is not speaking her own, but what God gave. I think it could be good if men also humble themselves and let God’s word be the king.

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It's interesting when we talk about husband and wife roles that no one wants to talk about I Cor. 11:3 (HCSB) But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of the woman, and God is the head of Christ. this means that the woman who is submitting to her husband should, if we are being biblical, be ultimately submitting to God, through Christ and her husband. But here is the rub that gets most men upset. She, that is the wife is told to learn from the husband. A husband that supposedly has learned to submit to Christ. IOW's the husband is suppose to be teaching the wife how to be a Godly wife through living it out in his life. The husband's role in his relationship with Christ is the same as the wifes relationship with him. That leaves us with two embarrassing questions for most men. 1. do you behave before God like you expect your wife to behave before you and 2. if you don't approve of how woman behave in church, what does that say about the example lived out in their husbands lives?

Now, that being said, let's look at one more very unfortunate truth. Eph. 5 tells us that Christ loved the church unto
26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

In my personal opinion, not a single husband who looks at his bride and doesn't see a radiance in her, a purity, a cleansed lamb of God, doesn't have a right to tell, suggest, or even teach women what their role in the church should be. Look around your local body and see how many of the women are truly radiant, a radiance like Christ Loved His bride with. Without that radiance, the husband isn't really Loving like Christ loved and he should cleanse himself and Love his wife before he even attempts to worry about how the women in his congregation are behaving...just my two cents.

timewerx said:

I am a man, I tend to be assertive and often take leadership in random groups....

....But I'm not in any way disturbed, nor offended if a woman takes the leadership from regardless if she deserved it or not. I don't take any offense either if any woman beats me in anything.

So I have no idea what you're talking about. I treat women as absolute equals and it has bought me nothing else but good.

Honestly, I sometimes think of women as superior... ...Because when I'm looking for a person with critical thinking and real sense of responsibility and accountability, I will most likely find a woman. Brute strength means nothing to me - animals have it too. What makes us unique is our ability to think and I found this quality better in women.

There maybe more men in world of science and technology.... ...But look at what science and technology did to our world? Made it worse for most people around the world (escalated poverty, wars and conflicts, and overpopulation) and animals and plants!

In my mind, women are better and should be given more authority. I'm a man but my eyes don't deceive me, I'm looking for results and women give the results, men only make things worse to our world!

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Hi,
Women are different, they are not better.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

katerinah1947 said:

Hi,
Women are different, they are not better.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

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I think with all the horrific things happening around the world today, the answer is very clear.

I don't think a bunch of women will form an armed group to raid and loot people's homes and mercilessly murder and torture innocents...