Discussion Defending self and others.

brinny

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again its in proverbs ch 6 . get to the point ..its getting late here lol

Would you care to share what verses you are referring to in Proverbs 6, or would you rather me post the verses i had in mind?

Thank you kindly.
 
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Alithis

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Would you care to share what verses you are referring to in Proverbs 6, or would you rather me post the verses i had in mind?

Thank you kindly.
well go ahead and post them -you should have just done so .then you can get to the point you're going to make :)
 
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brinny

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well go ahead and post them -you should have just done so .then you can get to the point you're going to make :)

As you wish:

"A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth. He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers; Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord. Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy. These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren." ~Proverbs 6:12-19

Is God referring to someone who is defending the helpless here?

Thank you kindly.
 
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Alithis

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As you wish:

"A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth. He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers; Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord. Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy. These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren." ~Proverbs 6:12-19

Is God referring to someone who is defending the helpless here?

Thank you kindly.
no .. and iv never advocated not defending the helpless .. scroll back ,you'll see.
all i have said is we should have faith in God first and not our flesh . we should move ,live in and Listen to the Holy Spirit .
but since you brought it up .., though so few are honest and they will deny it vehemently in the most part .., but when they own a hand gun..'some' act a certain way .
They clean it and polish it and hold it just so in their hand and they look down the sights ..- and they imagine its use .. hmmm, there is no victim, no innocent to defend in their presence ..yet there they sit with "-A heart that deviseth wicked imaginations" - interesting isn't it this deceptive heart of the flesh .
 
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YESLORDIWILL

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These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. (Proverbs 6:16-19)

1 John 5:16 There is a sin G266 unto death, when the sin is such...

 
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brinny

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Defending self and others.

no .. and iv never advocated not defending the helpless .. scroll back ,you'll see.
all i have said is we should have faith in God first and not our flesh . we should move ,live in and Listen to the Holy Spirit .
but since you brought it up .., though so few are honest and they will deny it vehemently in the most part .., but when they own a hand gun..'some' act a certain way .
They clean it and polish it and hold it just so in their hand and they look down the sights ..- and they imagine its use .. hmmm, there is no victim, no innocent to defend in their presence ..yet there they sit with "-A heart that deviseth wicked imaginations" - interesting isn't it this deceptive heart of the flesh .

Please clarify for me brother, who God is referring to in Proverbs 6, brother in Christ and beloved son of the Most High God.

Thank you kindly.
 
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probinson

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Would I kill someone who was trying to harm my family? Yes, I could. But I would never classify anything about that circumstance as righteous, but as a whole sorry, sad, unholy, unrighteous mess in a fallen world.

This is absolutely brilliantly stated. My response to the question, "Would I kill someone who was trying to harm my family?" is quite simply, "I don't know".

The problem with these types of questions is they are fraught with emotion and extremism. The fact of the matter is, that vast majority of us will likely never find ourselves with the need to answer that question anyway. Additionally, the question is framed in a way to make it seem like you just don't care about your family if you wouldn't kill another person. Scriptures are yanked way the heck out of any kind of reasonable context to make it mean that if you wouldn't shoot someone with a gun, you're not "providing" for your family.

I find it troublesome that people can so easily say that they would end another human life. The Truth is, God values us all. He died for us all. And as such, I can't just say with complete confidence that I would end another person's life even if they were hurting me or my family.

There is no easy answer to this question for me. If someone were hurting my wife or my kids I would certainly do what I could to stop them, and in the heat of the moment I might just kill to protect them. But I could not pretend like it was my God-given right to do so. I would agree with RDKirk's statement and call it, "A whole sorry, sad, unholy, unrighteous mess in a fallen world."

:cool:
 
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brinny

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Defending self and others.

This is absolutely brilliantly stated. My response to the question, "Would I kill someone who was trying to harm my family?" is quite simply, "I don't know".

The problem with these types of questions is they are fraught with emotion and extremism. The fact of the matter is, that vast majority of us will likely never find ourselves with the need to answer that question anyway. Additionally, the question is framed in a way to make it seem like you just don't care about your family if you wouldn't kill another person. Scriptures are yanked way the heck out of any kind of reasonable context to make it mean that if you wouldn't shoot someone with a gun, you're not "providing" for your family.

I find it troublesome that people can so easily say that they would end another human life. The Truth is, God values us all. He died for us all. And as such, I can't just say with complete confidence that I would end another person's life even if they were hurting me or my family.

There is no easy answer to this question for me. If someone were hurting my wife or my kids I would certainly do what I could to stop them, and in the heat of the moment I might just kill to protect them. But I could not pretend like it was my God-given right to do so. I would agree with RDKirk's statement and call it, "A whole sorry, sad, unholy, unrighteous mess in a fallen world."

:cool:

What is extreme is someone attempting to do harm and/or kill your family or someone else. What is extreme is that someone is planning the demise of an innocent person without cause. What is extreme is that THIS is what is paramount here, not that someone is forced to take measures in such extreme urgency to protect their family or another person who is being targeted. What is extreme is to not hear the cries of one who is being devoured by evil and turn a deaf ear or a deaf heart to them. THAT is a sin, and a sin of the most onerous and egregious kind. In essence to do so is bolstering evil, and as such, evil triumphs.

THIS is evil. Not the one defending the innocent:

"My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not. If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause: Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit: We shall find all precious substance, we shall fill our houses with spoil: Cast in thy lot among us; let us all have one purse: My son, walk not thou in the way with them; refrain thy foot from their path: For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood." ~Proverbs 1:10-16

Thank you kindly.
 
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Alithis

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This is absolutely brilliantly stated. My response to the question, "Would I kill someone who was trying to harm my family?" is quite simply, "I don't know".

The problem with these types of questions is they are fraught with emotion and extremism. The fact of the matter is, that vast majority of us will likely never find ourselves with the need to answer that question anyway. Additionally, the question is framed in a way to make it seem like you just don't care about your family if you wouldn't kill another person. Scriptures are yanked way the heck out of any kind of reasonable context to make it mean that if you wouldn't shoot someone with a gun, you're not "providing" for your family.

I find it troublesome that people can so easily say that they would end another human life. The Truth is, God values us all. He died for us all. And as such, I can't just say with complete confidence that I would end another person's life even if they were hurting me or my family.

There is no easy answer to this question for me. If someone were hurting my wife or my kids I would certainly do what I could to stop them, and in the heat of the moment I might just kill to protect them. But I could not pretend like it was my God-given right to do so. I would agree with RDKirk's statement and call it, "A whole sorry, sad, unholy, unrighteous mess in a fallen world."

:cool:
yes it was part of my point ,i too find it troubling, especially from those claiming to be "holy Spirit filled "
i also suspect such words of bravado are, in a lot of cases simply keyboard warrior talk
 
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Aldebaran

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though so few are honest and they will deny it vehemently in the most part .., but when they own a hand gun..'some' act a certain way .
They clean it and polish it and hold it just so in their hand and they look down the sights ..- and they imagine its use .. hmmm, there is no victim, no innocent to defend in their presence ..yet there they sit with "-A heart that deviseth wicked imaginations" - interesting isn't it this deceptive heart of the flesh .

What you are now talking about is the intent of few people. It is a description of someone who is intent on murder, not defense. More precisely, it sounds like something you saw on TV and are assuming to be true of so many people in real life who simply want to protect themselves.
 
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Aldebaran

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this is a little self contradictory .. as you say, either way got them killed . those teachers who shielded the children laid down their live in the attempt ,that is of the highest commendation .
as i said before ..this life is temporary and Chrisitians who are supposed to believe that ,need to start living out the course and days of their life with that in mind -
it is appointed unto all men once to die .

So what are you saying here? First of all, I never said, "Either way got them killed". Are you suggesting that if a gunman walks into a school and starts killing people, that they should be allowed to do so?
Also, you didn't answer my question about the teachers calling the police. Did the teachers do the right thing by calling the gun-armed police to stop the attacker? Childrens' lives were saved as a result. Should those children have died at their "appointed time" instead of something being done (again, calling the police who came with guns) to stop the attacker?
 
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Alithis

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So what are you saying here? First of all, I never said, "Either way got them killed". Are you suggesting that if a gunman walks into a school and starts killing people, that they should be allowed to do so?
Also, you didn't answer my question about the teachers calling the police. Did the teachers do the right thing by calling the gun-armed police to stop the attacker? Childrens' lives were saved as a result. Should those children have died at their "appointed time" instead of something being done (again, calling the police who came with guns) to stop the attacker?
you may have noticed ..if a gun man walks into a school and starts killing people .. even though NO ONE allows it ..they still do it .and your approaching the topic from a carnal mindset .. there is a high likelihood that the holy Spirit caused some to not be there that day because he sought to preserve their life for his purposes .

and it was me that said either way it got them kiled . caling the "armed police on their phone .. did not stop the bullets .. it only prevented more .. buyt the topic is far to diversified and out of the scope of the OP scenario.
of which i have already said 3 times now ... "i think love would take over -i would rush in calling on the name of the lord ,pull the attacker off and get between them and my loved ones to shield them .. im sure ANYONE would .
 
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Aldebaran

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you may have noticed ..if a gun man walks into a school and starts killing people .. even though NO ONE allows it ..they still do it .

If someone has the ability to stop them from killing more people after they start shooting, then they're allowing it to continue.

and your approaching the topic from a carnal mindset .. there is a high likelihood that the holy Spirit caused some to not be there that day because he sought to preserve their life for his purposes .

What do you say about those who were there? Were they meant to die?

and it was me that said either way it got them kiled . caling the "armed police on their phone .. did not stop the bullets .. it only prevented more ..

You're playing on words here. So the police stopping the gunman from shooting more people didn't stop him from shooting anyone, but only prevented him from shooting more people. Is there really a difference between stopping someone from killing or preventing them from killing? And again, were teachers wrong to call the gun-armed police? Isn't that a carnal thing to do in your opinion?

buyt the topic is far to diversified and out of the scope of the OP scenario.
of which i have already said 3 times now ... "i think love would take over -i would rush in calling on the name of the lord ,pull the attacker off and get between them and my loved ones to shield them .. im sure ANYONE would .

Don't you think the teachers and students hiding in closets before they were killed were praying?
 
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Alithis

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If someone has the ability to stop them from killing more people after they start shooting, then they're allowing it to continue.



What do you say about those who were there? Were they meant to die?



You're playing on words here. So the police stopping the gunman from shooting more people didn't stop him from shooting anyone, but only prevented him from shooting more people. Is there really a difference between stopping someone from killing or preventing them from killing? And again, were teachers wrong to call the gun-armed police? Isn't that a carnal thing to do in your opinion?



Don't you think the teachers and students hiding in closets before they were killed were praying?
i wont bother to much with reply because i jus choose not to when people start over dissecting posts - the reason is ,each sentance seperated from its post raises new questions and over diversifies the topic into ambiguity .i dont mind the odd one here and there but single sentences should be left in the context of the post in which they came .and your talking abiout a whole other scenario ..not the Op senario .
my main point remaisn that faith in GOD is paramount .. and faith in God includes knowing our lives are in His hands ..not the strength of the flesh .thats all :)
 
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Aldebaran

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i wont bother to much with reply because i jus choose not to when people start over dissecting posts - the reason is ,each sentance seperated from its post raises new questions and over diversifies the topic into ambiguity .i dont mind the odd one here and there but single sentences should be left in the context of the post in which they came .and your talking abiout a whole other scenario ..not the Op senario .
my main point remaisn that faith in GOD is paramount .. and faith in God includes knowing our lives are in His hands ..not the strength of the flesh .thats all :)

I responded to your post in parts because I wanted to address each of your points. If you're not willing to answer what I asked you, then it indicates that you don't have answers. But it would have been nice if you would at least try to defend your position.
I don't mind if someone is ok with allowing someone to kill them. If that's what they believe they should do, then they should do it. But when it comes to defending others--let's just say I wouldn't want to be with that person when there was an attack knowing that such a person would be content with allowing me to be killed. I would also fear for this person's family.
 
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Alithis

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I responded to your post in parts because I wanted to address each of your points. If you're not willing to answer what I asked you, then it indicates that you don't have answers. But it would have been nice if you would at least try to defend your position.
I don't mind if someone is ok with allowing someone to kill them. If that's what they believe they should do, then they should do it. But when it comes to defending others--let's just say I wouldn't want to be with that person when there was an attack knowing that such a person would be content with allowing me to be killed. I would also fear for this person's family.
lol nope .it indicates i dont wish to diversify into endless debate ,not that i dont have answers .
-and please ,do scroll back and read and you will find FOUR TIMES now i have stated no such thing so.. dont be too afraid .
 
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hislegacy

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you may have noticed ..if a gun man walks into a school and starts killing people .. even though NO ONE allows it ..they still do it .and your approaching the topic from a carnal mindset ..
there is a high likelihood that the holy Spirit caused some to not be there that day because he sought to preserve their life for his purposes .


So God basically chose not to save those who either were not saved, or were saved, but there wasn't a purpose for their lives being spared?

You certainly serve a strange God? My God is long suffering not willing that any should perish. My God will intercede supernaturally and also give man the wisdom and strength to defend himself.

There are times that God fights for us

The Lord your God, who goes before you, He will fight for you, according to all He did for you in Egypt before your eyes, Duet 1:30

And times God commands us to fight for ourselves

“Then you answered and said to me, ‘We have sinned against the Lord; we will go up and fight, just as the Lord our God commanded us.’ And when everyone of you had girded on his weapons of war, you were ready to go up into the mountain.
This is a recurring theme throughout the Word of God. It is undeniable, even though some choose to not address the issue.
 
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Alithis

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So God basically chose not to save those who either were not saved, or were saved, but there wasn't a purpose for their lives being spared?

You certainly serve a strange God? My God is long suffering not willing that any should perish. My God will intercede supernaturally and also give man the wisdom and strength to defend himself.

There are times that God fights for us

The Lord your God, who goes before you, He will fight for you, according to all He did for you in Egypt before your eyes, Duet 1:30

And times God commands us to fight for ourselves

“Then you answered and said to me, ‘We have sinned against the Lord; we will go up and fight, just as the Lord our God commanded us.’ And when everyone of you had girded on his weapons of war, you were ready to go up into the mountain.
This is a recurring theme throughout the Word of God. It is undeniable, even though some choose to not address the issue.
God is soveriegn and i dont disagree
 
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RDKirk

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yes it was part of my point ,i too find it troubling, especially from those claiming to be "holy Spirit filled "
i also suspect such words of bravado are, in a lot of cases simply keyboard warrior talk
Back during the 80s--when I did carry a gun--I also had the opportunity to play pistolcraft "games" with Air Force Pararescue and Navy SEALs.

But those men are genuine Olympic-level athletes at what they do. It's not a matter of determination. Their training is so intense that it eliminates anyone who doesn't actually have the elite genetics to operate at their level, over and above anyone's determination. They are so fast and accurate it's simply uncanny.

Which humbled me, because I thought I was pretty good. But it did teach me that to achieve and sustain a level of combat effectiveness to confidently handle a surprise situation (which is the primary kind of situation civilians expect) took a level of absolute dedication and constant realistic training. The reason those guys played the combat games was to keep in practice between their military training opportunities--they noted that even three or four days away from the range dulled their edge.

I had to consider whether I wanted to "give myself to the gun" at that level of dedication, and as I became more serious in my Christian evangelism, that became more of a concern. If I train myself to evaluate every person as a possible threat--which is what it takes--how can I also allow the Holy Spirit to teach me to evaluate every person as a possible brother? The intentions are conflicted. One can't aspire to be the most effective killer and the most effective evangelist at the same time...one or the other suffers.
 
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no .. and iv never advocated not defending the helpless .. scroll back ,you'll see.
all i have said is we should have faith in God first and not our flesh . we should move ,live in and Listen to the Holy Spirit .
but since you brought it up .., though so few are honest and they will deny it vehemently in the most part .., but when they own a hand gun..'some' act a certain way .
They clean it and polish it and hold it just so in their hand and they look down the sights ..- and they imagine its use .. hmmm, there is no victim, no innocent to defend in their presence ..yet there they sit with "-A heart that deviseth wicked imaginations" - interesting isn't it this deceptive heart of the flesh .


Alithis, I know you said "some" but you are applying that "some" to "most". Isn't it wicked imaginations to think that those who have a gun are planning to kill innocent people with it? All because they have to clean and polish it in order to keep it in good working order and looking down it's barrel (in my driving I drive a lot of guys who own guns and they talk) is not a good reasoning that their intentions are wicked, which is the scripture you applied to it. IF I were to get a gun I would certainly take shooting lessons so that I could handle it correctly and not accidentally shoot anyone or even hurt myself. I would keep it clean and polish it because that is what you do when you own a gun and expect it to work correctly when you need to use it. My target in practice would not be a human and since I'm an animal lover it also would not be an animal, nor would I imagine it being a human or an animal.


images
 
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