smaneck

Baha'i
Sep 29, 2010
21,182
2,948
Jackson, MS
✟55,644.00
Faith
Baha'i
Marital Status
Single
The original Arabic makes no reference to Jews or Christians in the way that has been done in this thread.

The background for this nonsense is that a long time ago, Misihi found a sermon online from some Muslim preacher in Indonesia I think, stating that the Jews were those who incurred God's anger and that Christians were those who had gone astray. So he has been repeating this as fact ever since.
 
Upvote 0

Aryeh Jay

Gone and hopefully forgotten.
Supporter
Jul 19, 2012
15,312
14,321
MI - Michigan
✟498,114.00
Country
United States
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
This is the sura that has been misrepresented in a recent post. It is called ‘The Opening’; and is very important in Islamic worship, being an obligatory part of the daily prayer, repeated several times during the day:

‘In the name of God, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy! Praise belongs to God, Lord of the Worlds, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy, Master of the Day of Judgement. It is You we worship; it is You we ask for help. Guide us to the straight path: the path of those You have blessed, those who incur no anger and who have not gone astray.’

(Al-Fatiha).

The original Arabic makes no reference to Jews or Christians in the way that has been done in this thread.


Well, now I’m confused. Who do I believe? A Muslim that talks of peace and compassion, or a Christian that spews hate and lies about Islam? Decisions, decisions…
 
Upvote 0

Aryeh Jay

Gone and hopefully forgotten.
Supporter
Jul 19, 2012
15,312
14,321
MI - Michigan
✟498,114.00
Country
United States
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
The background for this nonsense is that a long time ago, Misihi found a sermon online from some Muslim preacher in Indonesia I think, stating that the Jews were those who incurred God's anger and that Christians were those who had gone astray. So he has been repeating this as fact ever since.

I saw David Duke and Fred Phelps once, are they not the spokesmen of Christianity?
 
Upvote 0

Arthra

Baha'i
Feb 20, 2004
7,060
572
California
Visit site
✟71,812.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Many of the stories told in the Qur'an were circulating around the time and were not "original" in themselves..some of these were recounted not to be under the"authorship" of Prophet Muhammad as He never claimed to be their author..therefore no plagiarism was involved..Often they were told to make a point or a illustration. The story of Jesus breathing into the clay birds He fashioned was from an old infancy Gospel..originally it was an admonition not to "work" on the sabbath day... There were many Jews in the community and you'll note that originally the Qiblih was toward Jerusalem so there was an admiration among the early Muslims for Jews and Christians as well. The first exodus of Muslims from pagan Mecca was to Christian Ethiopia where they found some shelter...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
24,643
14,530
Here
✟1,196,492.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I saw David Duke and Fred Phelps once, are they not the spokesmen of Christianity?

You'd think so from reading some CF threads...

On certain topics, people throw Fred Phelps' name out there simply as bait to give them the chance to accuse someone of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

It's usually the same folks who claim that ISIS doesn't represent Islam...but have no problem saying that Westboro represents Christians...and if you tell them otherwise, they'll tell you that you have no right to define who is and isn't a Christian.
 
Upvote 0

smaneck

Baha'i
Sep 29, 2010
21,182
2,948
Jackson, MS
✟55,644.00
Faith
Baha'i
Marital Status
Single
It's usually the same folks who claim that ISIS doesn't represent Islam...but have no problem saying that Westboro represents Christians...and if you tell them otherwise, they'll tell you that you have no right to define who is and isn't a Christian.

Saying someone or a group is not representative of a religion is not the same as saying they are not Christian or Muslims. ISIL is not representative of Islam, but I would not say they are not Muslims.
 
Upvote 0

Supreme

British
Jul 30, 2009
11,890
490
London
✟22,685.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Islam is the other great religion, alongside Christianity. These two religions have always fascinated me. I can't pretend to even be interested in other faiths. Christianity and Islam have shaped this world, and we have so much in common. Long may we continue to shape this world.

Islam has also produced the most beautiful architecture in human history. But whole books could be written about that.
 
Upvote 0

LoAmmi

Dispassionate
Mar 12, 2012
26,944
9,715
✟209,533.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
You can't plagiarize a text you can't read. The Prophet was illiterate. But yes, many of the stories in the Qur'an can be found in both Jewish and Christian oral traditions. Why would this cause any Muslim to abandon Islam? Does the story of the Ark and Flood found in the Epic of Gilgamesh cause Christians to abandon Christianity?

I would say that it's a possibility that anybody in that region might have heard these stories from Jews or Christians. It might even be a story that spread around beyond Christian and Jewish circles.
 
Upvote 0

smaneck

Baha'i
Sep 29, 2010
21,182
2,948
Jackson, MS
✟55,644.00
Faith
Baha'i
Marital Status
Single
I would say that it's a possibility that anybody in that region might have heard these stories from Jews or Christians. It might even be a story that spread around beyond Christian and Jewish circles.

I'm quite sure it did. One thing that is clear in reading the Qur'an is how often it only tells half the story. There seems to be an assumption that the audience already knows the other half even though they were not Christians or Jews. The Qur'an highlights those parts needed to make a point in the present.
 
Upvote 0

Masihi

love based faith is truer than fear based faith
Aug 26, 2010
1,014
37
✟16,803.00
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
1) muslims worship their 'allah' by criticizing/ fighting Christian dogma and jewish beliefs. It is actually something in their daily prayers, called rak'a. This is their daily prayer: "Guide us to the straight path, the path of those whom You have favored, Not of those who have incurred your wrath (Jews*), nor of those who have gone astray (Christians*)." *-emphasis mine
muslims cannot judge the Bible because muslims are never mentioned in the bible. However Christians can be an authority on the quran because the quran makes mention of Christians.
"It is the wish of a section of the People of the Book (Christians & Jews*) to lead you astray. But they shall lead astray (Not you), but themselves, and they do not perceive!"- S 3.69 (*emphasis mine)
AND
"It is He Who got out the Unbelievers among the People of the Book (Christians & Jews*) from their homes at the first gathering (of the forces). Little did ye think that they would get out: And they thought that their fortresses would defend them from God! But the (Wrath of) God came to them..." S 59.2 (*emphasis mine)
--------------
For the quran illiterate, these passages demonstrate what most muslims take for granted in their daily prayers.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Masihi

love based faith is truer than fear based faith
Aug 26, 2010
1,014
37
✟16,803.00
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
hehehehehehe, so Jewish fairytales are found in the quran. The Bible never mentions Solomon speaking with birds. The quran does have Solomon speaking with a bird and giving it commands, as paralleled in Rabbi Joseph's story found in Targum. At issue, is that no one was ever expected to accept Rabbi Joseph's story as historical. No Jew takes Targum as historical. The material in Talmud and Targum is expository, given as commentaries to the actual Biblical account. It is meant to add flavor to the actual Biblical account. They are fiction. Muslims spend their lives thinking Solomon spoke with birds and the mystical creatures called jinn (genies).
--------------------------------
Looking at the quranic version of the story, one notable difference to Rabbi Joseph's story is the addtn of:
1) "I will certainly punish him with a severe penalty, or execute him, unless he bring me a clear reason (for absence)." S 27.21 (A common theme throughout the quran again repeated here, 'allah's' repeated threats of punishment, not found in original story by rabbi Joseph)
2) ""God! - there is no god but He! - Lord of the Throne Supreme!" S 27.26 (another common find in the quran, 'allah's' self-elevated status as some supreme being; no where is this found in the original story by rabbi Joseph)
3) "He said: "This is but a palace paved smooth with slabs of glass." She said: "O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul: I do (now) submit (in Islam), with Solomon, to the Lord of the Worlds." - S 27.44 (pathetic. Another common finding in the quran, the end of a story includes the person submitting to 'allah'; this is not found in the original story by rabbi Joseph)
-------------------------
Unless someone meant the 3 addtns noted above, NO ONE should be expected to gain any deep hidden meaning from reading the quranic version of rabbi Joseph's story.
 
Upvote 0

Masihi

love based faith is truer than fear based faith
Aug 26, 2010
1,014
37
✟16,803.00
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Unless someone meant the 3 addtns noted above, NO ONE should be expected to gain any deep hidden meaning from reading the quranic version of rabbi Joseph's story.
I would propose that people purchase a complete set of Mishnah if their reading pleasure includes all the original quranic fairytales. Don't waste your money on a quran.
 
Upvote 0

Arthra

Baha'i
Feb 20, 2004
7,060
572
California
Visit site
✟71,812.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Masihi wrote:

"I would propose that people purchase a complete set of Mishnah if their reading pleasure includes all the original quranic fairytales. Don't waste your money on a quran."

Well Masihi... I have nothing against studying the Mishnah but with twenty volumes and a hefty price tag of over four hundred dollars on Amazon I'd suggest studying the Qur'an as well!

The Qur'an is free! The Kindle edition can be downloaded off Amazon for free!
 
Upvote 0

Niblo

Muslim
Supporter
Dec 23, 2014
1,052
279
78
Wales.
✟221,145.00
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Married
It has been said in this thread that Muslims are never mentioned in the Bible. A Muslim is someone who submits to the will of the Exalted. Here are a few Biblical ones:

‘Say (Muhammad): “We believe in God and in what has been sent down to us and to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes. We believe in what has been given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets from their Lord. We do not make a distinction between any of the prophets. It is to Him that we devote ourselves.” If anyone seeks a religion other than complete devotion to God, it will not be accepted from him: he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter.’

(Al‘Imran: 84-85).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Arthra
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LoAmmi

Dispassionate
Mar 12, 2012
26,944
9,715
✟209,533.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
It has been said in this thread that Muslims are never mentioned in the Bible. A Muslim is someone who submits to the will of the Exalted. Here are a few Biblical ones:

‘Say (Muhammad): “We believe in God and in what has been sent down to us and to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes. We believe in what has been given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets from their Lord. We do not make a distinction between any of the prophets. It is to Him that we devote ourselves.” If anyone seeks a religion other than complete devotion to God, it will not be accepted from him: he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter.’

(Al‘Imran: 84-85).

My problem with this is that it's kind of a word game I see played. Maybe not you, but let's look at it this way. In today's usage, a Muslim is a person who follows the religion of Islam. You wouldn't call me a Muslim, right? But when we look at the people you mention above, they did not follow the religion of Islam as known today.

So when you say they were Muslims, you mean they followed the will of HaShem, not that they were followers of the modern day religion of Islam. I find Muslims like to use the two terms interchangeably and I think that's a bit disingenuous.
 
Upvote 0

Niblo

Muslim
Supporter
Dec 23, 2014
1,052
279
78
Wales.
✟221,145.00
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Married
My problem with this is that it's kind of a word game I see played. Maybe not you, but let's look at it this way. In today's usage, a Muslim is a person who follows the religion of Islam. You wouldn't call me a Muslim, right? But when we look at the people you mention above, they did not follow the religion of Islam as known today.

So when you say they were Muslims, you mean they followed the will of HaShem, not that they were followers of the modern day religion of Islam. I find Muslims like to use the two terms interchangeably and I think that's a bit disingenuous.

Hello LoAmmi,

I apologise for the confusion. Clearly these people were not Muslim in the sense it is used today, since the religion of Islam did not exist in their time. Perhaps I ought to have used the word HaShem rather than Exalted (or perhaps said nothing at all). I am happy to delete my post if it causes you offence.
 
Upvote 0

LoAmmi

Dispassionate
Mar 12, 2012
26,944
9,715
✟209,533.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Hello LoAmmi,

I apologise for the confusion. Clearly these people were not Muslim in the sense it is used today, since the religion of Islam did not exist in their time. Perhaps I ought to have used the word HaShem rather than Exalted (or perhaps said nothing at all). I am happy to delete my post if it causes you offence.

No, I'm not offended. It's just something that's happened and it gets kind of frustrating. I haven't seen you do it but I have had it in discussion with other Muslims in the past. You can use Exalted if you want, I certainly have no problem with that. Our faiths have our own ways to refer to the same being.
 
Upvote 0

Niblo

Muslim
Supporter
Dec 23, 2014
1,052
279
78
Wales.
✟221,145.00
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Married
No, I'm not offended. It's just something that's happened and it gets kind of frustrating. I haven't seen you do it but I have had it in discussion with other Muslims in the past. You can use Exalted if you want, I certainly have no problem with that. Our faiths have our own ways to refer to the same being.


Thank you. This is why I used the word 'Exalted'. It embraces all Abrahamic faiths, rather than being 'faith specific', if that makes any sense.

Have a good day.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LoAmmi

Dispassionate
Mar 12, 2012
26,944
9,715
✟209,533.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Thank you. This is why I used the word 'Exalted'. It embraces all Abrahamic faiths, rather than being 'faith specific', if that makes any sense.

Have a good day.

Man, it would take a while to go over what we call Him. HaShem, by the way, is a stand in for the four letter name that's used in the text of the Tanach.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Niblo
Upvote 0