The Grace heresy teaching holiness is legalism.
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Alithis
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is this going to be one of those please explain yourself situations ..? i hope so because claiming Paul and Christs gospels are different .. is gong to take a load of explaining and still end up being a load of... well ......something else
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I'm not the one making the claim.is this going to be one of those please explain yourself situations ..? i hope so because claiming Paul and Christs gospels are different .. is gong to take a load of explaining and still end up being a load of... well ......something else
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I freely admit I have not read the whole thread, only portions of it. That is always risky. I will just say that to walk in the Spirit is to allow God's Spirit to work in you, to will what He wills, and that if we are doing that there is no law against such things.
The imperatives in the New Testament are are all spelling out what a life in Christ looks like when the fruit of the Spirit is lived out in us. We are saved by Grace. And we can only obey by grace, and by Christ's power working in us. We have nothing to offer on our own, other than willingness to let the Spirit work in us. But if we let the Spirit work in us then He will not lead us to anything but holiness. The problem is we do not always let Him work in us. This is certainly our failing, and not that of God.
Hence Paul saying:
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
He mentions that if we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
To my thinking the goal is to walk more and more in the Spirit, allowing the Spirit to bear fruit in us, crucifying the flesh with its affections and lusts. The focus is not on removing individual sins. The focus is on allowing the Spirit to do the Spirit's will, which is never sin. Focus more on Christ, not simply on resisting sin.
The imperatives in the New Testament are are all spelling out what a life in Christ looks like when the fruit of the Spirit is lived out in us. We are saved by Grace. And we can only obey by grace, and by Christ's power working in us. We have nothing to offer on our own, other than willingness to let the Spirit work in us. But if we let the Spirit work in us then He will not lead us to anything but holiness. The problem is we do not always let Him work in us. This is certainly our failing, and not that of God.
Hence Paul saying:
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
He mentions that if we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
To my thinking the goal is to walk more and more in the Spirit, allowing the Spirit to bear fruit in us, crucifying the flesh with its affections and lusts. The focus is not on removing individual sins. The focus is on allowing the Spirit to do the Spirit's will, which is never sin. Focus more on Christ, not simply on resisting sin.
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MWood
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No. The Gospel that Jesus was preaching was the Gospel of the Kingdom.
Mat 4:23, 9:35, 24:14 and Mark 1:14-15
The Gospel that Paul was preaching was the Gospel of the Grace of God.
Acts 20:24. Jesus gave this Gospel to Paul. It was hid in the mind of God until it was revealed to Paul. Jesus didn't preach this Gospel at all. Neither did Paul preach the Gospel of the Kingdom.
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MWood
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There are a lot of Jesus' teachings that are good for our learning. But, His teaching was not for us, the gentiles. They were for, to and about the "lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Jesus came to get His people turned back to the God of Israel, and set up the Kingdom.
No, they are not for me today, nor are they for any one else today. They were for the Israelites of that day.
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Goodbook
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?
Thats weird. Ok. So...when Jesus talked to the Samaritan woman and also the canaanite woman who said even the dogs eat the crumbs off the table..you think Jesus would just have ignored her?
I dont think so. Paul carried JESUS message to the gentiles not his own. he didnt make up something completely different. The only difference is, the existing jewish customs and traditions do not apply to gentiles. gentiles were never under the law of moses. The only things we meant to abstain from fornication, eating things that were strangled, and idols. This is so we can fellowship freely with each other.
Grace gives us the power of Christ to live holy lives...both jew and gentile who are no longer that but in Christ. What a holy life is is determined by the holy spirit. Thats why we need to walk in His ways...having his law on our HEARTS not in traditions and what other ppl say is right or wrong.
Thats weird. Ok. So...when Jesus talked to the Samaritan woman and also the canaanite woman who said even the dogs eat the crumbs off the table..you think Jesus would just have ignored her?
I dont think so. Paul carried JESUS message to the gentiles not his own. he didnt make up something completely different. The only difference is, the existing jewish customs and traditions do not apply to gentiles. gentiles were never under the law of moses. The only things we meant to abstain from fornication, eating things that were strangled, and idols. This is so we can fellowship freely with each other.
Grace gives us the power of Christ to live holy lives...both jew and gentile who are no longer that but in Christ. What a holy life is is determined by the holy spirit. Thats why we need to walk in His ways...having his law on our HEARTS not in traditions and what other ppl say is right or wrong.
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MWood
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He did ignore her. She called out to Him several times before His disciples ask Him if He wanted them to chase her away. That is when He said "I'm not come but to the lost sheep of the House of Israel."
The message that Paul taught was the Gospel of Grace. This is not the same Gospel that Jesus was preaching. This Gospel was hid in the mind of God from the beginning of time, it was never revealed to anyone, until Jesus revealed it to Paul.
If you will read the book of Acts, and all the letters of Paul, slowly, with meditation, Paul explains all of this. It is only written in His letters.
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mikedsjr
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MWood, I think I understand what you are saying and if I do understand, then I probably can see your position. The Gospel message was not complete until Christ was again and ascended into heaven. While Christ was on the earth the earth, the Jewish law was still the law to be conformed to....even through faith. This is partially the reason it was so difficult for many Jews who became Christian after the ascendance of Jesus to Heaven. They had issues with Gentiles who didn't want to abide by the laws of the Jewish code, and there was nothing wrong with the Jews abiding by their code, but their liberty to continue abiding by that law was not to be a law to be imposed onto the gentiles and the Jews struggled with this. Yes the Gentiles were confused by such laws and their maturity in the faith in Christ was not fully realized because they hadn't lived with the OT taught to them all their life, like the Jews.
The message of Christ in the Gospels is mostly law based and only few came to understand this during his days. The Samaritan woman and the Canaanite woman were examples of people who did come to the faith, while not full developed because Christ hadn't died, just like Abraham, Noah, and David were even less aware of the full development despite their faith. But Jesus was the Grace they needed which was fulfilled at the cross. What Paul does is help fully deliver the gospel message God wants us to hear.
The message of Christ in the Gospels is mostly law based and only few came to understand this during his days. The Samaritan woman and the Canaanite woman were examples of people who did come to the faith, while not full developed because Christ hadn't died, just like Abraham, Noah, and David were even less aware of the full development despite their faith. But Jesus was the Grace they needed which was fulfilled at the cross. What Paul does is help fully deliver the gospel message God wants us to hear.
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Goodbook
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He didnt ignore her. He healed her. He was saying i am come only to the lost sheep of israel cos he was being ironic. That was for the disciples sake cos they were snobbing her.
Jesus was exposing their hypocrisy.
Jesus was exposing their hypocrisy.
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While it is true in the Grace Heresy that many Christians use it as a license for sin in things which are clearly violating God's law, many Christians also use the heresy to excuse themselves in times of what they feel are "grey" areas, where the things they are doing for self-indulgent pleasures are excused when in reality they are not being holy. Some people have Sports as their god, Christians and non-Christians can make an idol out of sports. It's the self-indulgent aspect which is excused in the Grace Heresy. God wants every moment of our time, everything we say, do, think, or imagine to be for His service to honor Him. I could name dozens of things Christians do as self-indulgent pleasures, pass-times, which are not for our Creator but are rather for ourselves. I am no apostle Paul and have my times of unholy things...and for me, it's usually nothing but grumbling and complaining about why things have to be the way they are now, impatience toward God. I can go on wallowing in my dissatisfaction for hours, and there is nothing holy about it. When I go fishing (or play sports, I don't care to watch sports) I dedicate that time to God as His to refresh me so I can serve Him better. Some Christians go fishing only for selfish indulgence. There is a difference. The Grace Heresy says there is no difference, we can do whatever we want whenever we want however we want without serving God in the matter.
Some Christians, godly Christians, enjoy sports and can use the recreation in a godly way...most godly Christians I know get tired of it after a while because of all the wickedness in the lives of the players and all the wickedness in the ads and things advertised which encourage self-absorbed indulgence in things of the world sold to lost people, and much of it boldly dirty.
The Grace Heresy is used as an excuse for self indulgence as well as, in extreme, an excuse for sin in areas specifically spoken against in the Bible. It's nothing but an excuse for not being holy in our actions, thoughts, or words. It's an excuse for friendship the world and self-indulgence rather than fellowship of the cross which demands self-denial
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seekingsolace
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There's no difference, any time you spend for yourself is - self indulgence. Its's a slippery slope to accuse others of self indulgence for taking time for themselves, yet asserting yours is not.
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When one is a legalist, they have set the bar for what is acceptable. It's easier that way
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Sometimes I like the way I say things, so I repeat it the same way.
The Grace Heresy is used as an excuse for self indulgence as well as, in extreme, an excuse for sin in areas specifically spoken against in the Bible. It's nothing but an excuse for not being holy in our actions, thoughts, or words. It's an excuse for friendship the world and self-indulgence rather than fellowship of the cross which demands self-denial.
The self-indulgences excused in the Grace Heresy where people claim they are holy because Christ makes them holy so they are free to do whatever they feel like as long as they say it's not sin, are always for themselves and not for God, always self-centered and always unholy.
Here's an example. Look at Donald Duck and his old lady duck, Daisy....the Disney Duck Duo. They are pretty good ducks, doing what good ducks do, often having fun and being funny.....but they are living in the Grace Heresy which teaches they are free to do whatever they please as long as they don't say it's wrong, or what Christians would say is sin. Everything they do is unholy, ungodly, in rebellion against God because they give Him no thanks, no honor, no credit for creating them...in fact, all the credit for their creation goes to a sinner named Walt Disney.
A lot of Christians think they can live like Donald Duck and it's all good as long as they bow their heads and give thanks to God for their food. God wants us to be holy all the time serving Him always, not waddling around like worldly ducks in the Grace Heresy which teaches self-indulgence rather than obedience to God.
The Grace Heresy is used as an excuse for self indulgence as well as, in extreme, an excuse for sin in areas specifically spoken against in the Bible. It's nothing but an excuse for not being holy in our actions, thoughts, or words. It's an excuse for friendship the world and self-indulgence rather than fellowship of the cross which demands self-denial.
The self-indulgences excused in the Grace Heresy where people claim they are holy because Christ makes them holy so they are free to do whatever they feel like as long as they say it's not sin, are always for themselves and not for God, always self-centered and always unholy.
Here's an example. Look at Donald Duck and his old lady duck, Daisy....the Disney Duck Duo. They are pretty good ducks, doing what good ducks do, often having fun and being funny.....but they are living in the Grace Heresy which teaches they are free to do whatever they please as long as they don't say it's wrong, or what Christians would say is sin. Everything they do is unholy, ungodly, in rebellion against God because they give Him no thanks, no honor, no credit for creating them...in fact, all the credit for their creation goes to a sinner named Walt Disney.
A lot of Christians think they can live like Donald Duck and it's all good as long as they bow their heads and give thanks to God for their food. God wants us to be holy all the time serving Him always, not waddling around like worldly ducks in the Grace Heresy which teaches self-indulgence rather than obedience to God.
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