Discussion Defending self and others.

SpiritPsalmist · May 26, 2015

katerinah1947 said:
Hi,
It is not that your faith was not there, I think. It is there was another option that was available for you.
Is that the difference in supernatural and natural in your life? Is it that when God is all there is, then God is there for you, but He still picks the timing and the way.? Is that it? Is that it?
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

I believe it was that my faith was just not in the place it needed to be to receive the healing I needed. Maybe I'm wrong but that's what I believe. I had been having the problem for years and for the majority of those years I worked in a job that would not have filly covered that surgery. God was all I had. When I was in a job that would cover it, I sought God for a long time before I just concluded that I'd had enough. I'm not looking down on myself in saying my faith was not there, it just wasn't. I also don't think it was because I had another option...other than financial the option was always there. The drs were trying everything else on me but nothing worked. So after a weekend of hemmoraging I went in and told the dr I'd had enough and I wanted the surgery. While it was not the way I had wanted, I felt no condemnation from God. He was there with me the whole time.

I'm leaving this convo now, because I'm feeling the onset of condemnation from people. Sorry.

Alithis · May 26, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
I believe it was that my faith was just not in the place it needed to be to receive the healing I needed. Maybe I'm wrong but that's what I believe. I had been having the problem for years and for the majority of those years I worked in a job that would not have filly covered that surgery. God was all I had. When I was in a job that would cover it, I sought God for a long time before I just concluded that I'd had enough. I'm not looking down on myself in saying my faith was not there, it just wasn't. I also don't think it was because I had another option...other than financial the option was always there. The drs were trying everything else on me but nothing worked. So after a weekend of hemmoraging I went in and told the dr I'd had enough and I wanted the surgery. While it was not the way I had wanted, I felt no condemnation from God. He was there with me the whole time.

I'm leaving this convo now, because I'm feeling the onset of condemnation from people. Sorry.

sorry your feeling that ..im sure its no ones intent .

Alithis · May 26, 2015

Frogster said:
Your posts presume a limited view, your subjective view, as to what the Holy Spirit may do. You are welcome to think passivity is always the way for you, but you must realize that Christians are in the military, and if it is ok to defend our homeland, it is ok to defend our home, by the Spirit. I guess the Christians that fought Hitler were in the flesh? Were they in the flesh?

odd you assume obedience of god to be a passive stance . he can do far more then your little bullets

SpiritPsalmist · May 26, 2015

Alithis said:
odd you assume obedience of god to be a passive stance . he can do far more then your little bullets

Obedience to God includes both (there are many scriptures showing both) passive and aggressive, depending on which one He's telling you to do at the time. You cannot tell someone else what they should do or should have done. They must hear God for themselves to do what they hear Him saying and not be distracted by all the other voices telling them to do different.

Alithis · May 26, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
Obedience to God includes both (there are many scriptures showing both) passive and aggressive, depending on which one He's telling you to do at the time. You cannot tell someone else what they should do or should have done. They must hear God for themselves to do what they hear Him saying and not be distracted by all the other voices telling them to do different.

I totally agree - and no one is telling any one else what they shouldn't do . (though some are suggesting to others what they should do , some are saying ,.shoot the offender, ( don't care for the offenders salvation )others are saying main the offender and still others are saying trust in God .. ) i say trust in God in advance that he knows the number of our days and our lives are "in HIS hands "
it is a carnal reasoned ( not holy Spirit )sentiment to think that any of us truly has control. it is self delusional .If the lord wils that you live then nothing can kil you ,if he has foreordained the moment of your passing then nothing will remove you from it .this a temporary life and its time christians in the west begin to live it as such

but scroll back (and not only in this thread ) the overriding sentiment is .." act in violence and justify it later" .. the overriding sentiment "should be " - living in the Holy Spirit we trust him to lead us in every situation ,he is even able to have others intercede for us before hand unbeknown to us .
faith is knowing that God has it all in hand and accepting the outcome .

Though I walk in the midst of trouble, you preserve my life; you stretch out your hand against the wrath of my enemies, and your right hand delivers me.-Psalm 138:7

Frogster · May 26, 2015

Alithis said:
odd you assume obedience of god to be a passive stance . he can do far more then your little bullets

Then why have many non passive Christians used a Gun, and are still alive to talk about it? Again, if military can defend our homeland, why can't we defend our homes?

hislegacy · May 26, 2015

Alithis said:
odd you assume obedience of god to be a passive stance . he can do far more then your little bullets

Odd that you assume that obedience to God doesn't include you defending yourself when scripture is filled with examples of just that.

CGL1023 · May 26, 2015

Simply Put said:
Amen. Any of us would get physical with someone attacking a loved one, or ourself. This is where physical training is used by God.

Jesus told his followers to purchase swords, Luke 22:36, it was to prepare them for dangerous times. Read the verses before. Jesus speaks of a time where they had no need for money bags or swords, but the times changed for them.

It clearly shows times where there was no need for weaponry and times that it was a command, not just a thought.

Does God divinely protect us? Yes we find that places in scripture, but there are also examples where God's protection was to empower the person to defend himself.

God supernaturally protected the children of Israel against the Egyptians and then instructed them to clear the land of opposing forces.

On this subject of getting physical or carrying a weapon, I looked for what I could find thru an online search. One article (https://loveyourenemies.wordpress.com/2009/02/14/why-did-jesus-tell-his-disciples-to-carry-swords-2/) develops the idea that He was teaching the disciples nonviolence. It is too abstract to summarize, so read it if it interests you.

Jesus himself was a pacifist and His character, His teachings, His refusal to call down 12 legions of angels that He had access to, His last miracle, the restoration of a man's ear, reinforce that idea.

Alithis · May 26, 2015

Simply Put said:
Odd that you assume that obedience to God doesn't include you defending yourself when scripture is filled with examples of just that.

never said that though did i

brinny · May 26, 2015

CGL1023 said:
On this subject of getting physical or carrying a weapon, I looked for what I could find thru an online search. One article (https://loveyourenemies.wordpress.com/2009/02/14/why-did-jesus-tell-his-disciples-to-carry-swords-2/) develops the idea that He was teaching the disciples nonviolence. It is too abstract to summarize, so read it if it interests you.

Jesus himself was a pacifist and His character, His teachings, His refusal to call down 12 legions of angels that He had access to, His last miracle, the restoration of a man's ear, reinforce that idea.

By "Pacifist", do you mean that He never became angry or displayed an "impassioned expression of outrage"?

Thank you kindly.

Alithis · May 26, 2015

Frogster said:
Then why have many non passive Christians used a Gun, and are still alive to talk about it? Again, if military can defend our homeland, why can't we defend our homes?

is it not you who says show me (bible ) text ?.how is it applicable to the things of the Holy Spirit .
some folks seem almost perversely excited by the possible chance to maim or kill another of their fellow mankind . how does that in any way reflect an attitude of being filled with the Holy Spirit of the living God .. ? that is after all the underlying topical theme of this entire spirit filled/ charismatic forum .

Alithis · May 26, 2015

brinny said:
By "Pacifist", do you mean that He never became angry or displayed an "impassioned expression of outrage"?

Thank you kindly.

your going to take the old he used the whip path aren't you ?
id say he used a restraint that is beyond our comprehension -this LORD of Lords who had authority and just right to call down fire and destroy not only body but soul in hell fire eternally .. and all he did was kick over a table and and drive them out of the courtyard with a whip . does not actually say he struck a single person .

brinny · May 26, 2015

brinny said: By "Pacifist", do you mean that He never became angry or displayed an "impassioned expression of outrage"?

Thank you kindly.

Alithis said:
your going to take the old he used the whip path aren't you ?
id say he used a restraint that is beyond our comprehension -this LORD of Lords who had authority and just right to call down fire and destroy not only body but soul in hell fire eternally .. and all he did was kick over a table and and drive them out of the courtyard with a whip . does not actually say he struck a single person .

Did Jesus display an "impassioned expression of outrage"? Wrath?

Was He being a "Pacifist"?

Thank you kindly.

Alithis · May 26, 2015

brinny said:
Did Jesus display an "impassioned expression of outrage"? Wrath?

Was He being a "Pacifist"?

Thank you kindly.

being angry is not the opposite of passivism .
after all the word teaches us to" be angry but sin not "
anger unrestrained is lack of self control ..one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit is self control .
anger itself is not sinful it is merely an emotion . it is what we choose to do with emotions ..the outer expression of them which can be righteous or sinful action .

we must balance what folks are saying .. "some " have said of the op scenario that they would "shoot" the perpetrator .. but if they have a gun all they need do is fire a shot in the floor and yell stop .. to get his attention and he probably will. but they are implying they would run in and shoot him and justify it later .. see the difference? .. they -have feet that desire to hurry to violence .[look at the unrighteous way "
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”]
.I speak harsh now . they display the true heart motive of owning the hand gun , they own it because they desire to use it , they desire in their heart opportunity to justifiably kill ... (a fruit of the Holy Spirit ? i know it is not )

hislegacy · May 26, 2015

Alithis said:
never said that though did i

You have been saying it since your first post, or are you now admitting it is scriptural to defend yourself?

Alithis · May 26, 2015

Simply Put said:
You have been saying it since your first post, or are you now admitting it is scriptural to defend yourself?

go back and read what i said thanks .. i said in regard to the op scenario i think love would take over and i would run in calling on the name of the lord ,pull the attacker off and get between him and my loved ones .

i never said i would then seek to maim or kill him or do him any violence .i would attempt to be a shield to the ones i love no more no less - im sure any one of us would .

hislegacy · May 26, 2015

Alithis said:
.I speak harsh now . they display the true heart motive of owning the hand gun , they own it because they desire to use it , they desire in their heart opportunity to justifiably kill ... (a fruit of the Holy Spirit ? i know it is not )

This is perhaps the greatest statement of ignorance I have ever heard in my life.

Aldebaran · May 26, 2015

Alithis said:
i never said i would then seek to maim or kill him or do him any violence .i would attempt to be a shield to the ones i love no more no less - im sure any one of us would .

That has a limited effect. There were teachers in Sandy Hook elementary school who tried to shield students from gunfire by using their own body as a shield. It got themselves killed, and then the students they were shielding were killed as well. But then again, they didn't have options. The bad guy had a gun, and was able to kill, while the teachers and students had nothing to defend themselves with. So what did they do? They called the police and waited. Think about it for a minute. Why did they call the police? Could it possibly be because the police had guns, and would use them to stop the attacker? Were the teachers wrong for calling the police then?

brinny · May 26, 2015

Alithis said:
being angry is not the opposite of passivism .
after all the word teaches us to" be angry but sin not "
anger unrestrained is lack of self control ..one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit is self control .
anger itself is not sinful it is merely an emotion . it is what we choose to do with emotions ..the outer expression of them which can be righteous or sinful action .

we must balance what folks are saying .. "some " have said of the op scenario that they would "shoot" the perpetrator .. but if they have a gun all they need do is fire a shot in the floor and yell stop .. to get his attention and he probably will. but they are implying they would run in and shoot him and justify it later .. see the difference? .. they -have feet that desire to hurry to violence .[look at the unrighteous way "
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”]
.I speak harsh now . they display the true heart motive of owning the hand gun , they own it because they desire to use it , they desire in their heart opportunity to justifiably kill ... (a fruit of the Holy Spirit ? i know it is not )

What you posted is from these verses (Romans 3:13-18)?:

"Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes."~Romans 3:13-18

These verses are describing the one seeking to shed innocent blood and planning the hurt and/or demise of an unsuspecting victim. It's "predatory" in nature. It's not describing someone "reacting" to the one seeking to shed innocent blood, which God abhors, as is stated all throughout His Word.

Just for clarification, was Jesus demonstrating "wrath"?

Thank you kindly.

brinny · May 26, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
I believe it was that my faith was just not in the place it needed to be to receive the healing I needed. Maybe I'm wrong but that's what I believe. I had been having the problem for years and for the majority of those years I worked in a job that would not have filly covered that surgery. God was all I had. When I was in a job that would cover it, I sought God for a long time before I just concluded that I'd had enough. I'm not looking down on myself in saying my faith was not there, it just wasn't. I also don't think it was because I had another option...other than financial the option was always there. The drs were trying everything else on me but nothing worked. So after a weekend of hemmoraging I went in and told the dr I'd had enough and I wanted the surgery. While it was not the way I had wanted, I felt no condemnation from God. He was there with me the whole time.

I'm leaving this convo now, because I'm feeling the onset of condemnation from people. Sorry.

I'm sooooo sorry sister (((hug)))

Discussion Defending self and others.

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