The Reformation

Leah71 said:

Hello. I am hoping to learn more/gain better insight to the Reformation begun in AD 1517 sparked by Martin Luther. How do Christians (both Protestant and Catholic) view the Reformation today in the 21st Century? Is there any particular Reformer or Reformers you find more inspiring that the others?


I am interested to know of any suggested books you would recommend on the Reformation, both theological and historical. I would also be interested in any films you would recommend (both documentaries and dramatizations). I would like to look at both the Protestant and Catholic view points of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation.


I find the historical period quite fascinating for its developments and the impact of Western Civilization.


Thank you for your time.

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Have you seen this movie: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0309820/

I really enjoyed it, and highly recommend it if you have not already seen it.

Lutheranism 101 and the documentary Luther is a good one.

I found it on YouTube- there is a part 2 as well.

Not sure how much you're wiling to read. There are a number of good books on the topic. There may be more recent ones, but McGrath's is good: http://www.amazon.com/Intellectual-Origins-European-Reformation/dp/0631229396.

In my view, the Reformation started a process of reconsidering Christianity. It used the best scholarship available at the time. This included going back to the Hebrew and Greek. Several late medieval ideas came from bad Latin translations. It also involved some new, and I think mostly valid, insights into Paul. But the same kind of scholarship that Luther and Calvin came out of has continued. So you have to decide whether or not to stick with the 16th Cent ideas or accept theology based on the modern equivalent of what Luther and Calvin did. Most Christians don't like change, and thus tend to stick with Catholic theology, or Protestant theology from the 16th and 19th Cent.

As to the 16th Cent, I think Luther had the most innovative theology, but Calvin was by far the better Biblical interpreter. They're both worth reading. I generally prefer Calvin to his later followers. There's another strain of theology from the 16th Cent, the "anabaptists." They didn't have any one standout theologian. But later Mennonite theology is worth learning about.

The movie "Luther" doesn't do a good job with his theology. It's not a bad biopic, but you could get a slightly misleading idea of what of his ideas mattered.

Not to inundate you with more information or have you splitting hairs, but Anglican Philip Cary contrasted Lutheran and non-Lutheran Protestant approaches to the Gospel: http://www.academia.edu/185285/Why_...t_The_Logic_of_Faith_in_a_Sacramental_Promise

A shorter version here: http://www.ctsfw.net/media/pdfs/carysolafide.pdf

Leah71 said:

Hello. I am hoping to learn more/gain better insight to the Reformation begun in AD 1517 sparked by Martin Luther. How do Christians (both Protestant and Catholic) view the Reformation today in the 21st Century? Is there any particular Reformer or Reformers you find more inspiring that the others?


I am interested to know of any suggested books you would recommend on the Reformation, both theological and historical. I would also be interested in any films you would recommend (both documentaries and dramatizations). I would like to look at both the Protestant and Catholic view points of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation.


I find the historical period quite fascinating for its developments and the impact of Western Civilization.


Thank you for your time.

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The so-called-Christians (mainly Catholics and Lutherans), in the early to mid 1500s during the 'reformation', slaughtered other professing Christians because they did not do things the way they thought they should. Which is no surprise really because it has happened all throughout the last 2,000 years after the death of Christ. I suggest looking up historical documents and accounts of the murders that took place in the name of God. The Martyr's Mirror is a good place to start. An even better thing to do would be to read what Christ taught and see how it lines up with what the 'reformers' were doing ... not just what they were teaching but what they were doing. The Sermon on the Mount has many of Christ's teachings (Matthew chapters 5, 6 and 7), so that's a convenient place to start.

There will be evil men excusing their wicked ways under the pretense of religion to the very end.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15: And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

Leah71 said:

The 16th Century was a different time than today. Then people could be burned for heresy or opposing the local religious leaders (of any type). Today I can't imagine any Christian leader advocating that an apostate be burned. I am sure if you look hard enough at fringe groups and bizarre cults posing as Christian you could find one or two.

Thanks again for the input and suggestions.

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Regarding being burned for heresy, this was mostly done by secular governments to help keep the kingdom in line. The Catholic Church had tried and convicted people of heresy, but by and large referred those found guilty and unrepentant to the secular rule.
Regarding the Reformation, it was largely the effort of a few to decide not to submit to the authority of the Church. When Luther pounded his 95 Theses into the door of the Church, the Church was already in a state of reform, and had always been so, since Pentecost, after Jesus rose from the dead. The Church is the perfect institution of Christ being run by imperfect men, and because of this, must constantly be in reform. Luther was just an impatient cleric.

It was a devastating event that broke Christianity into thousands of different pieces. The Schism of 1054 was also a major blow to Christianity but there were only 2 factions afterwards which made reconciliation a realistic possibility. Today there are too many denominations so it is unrealistic to think that we could fix this and become unified once again. Disunity makes us weaker as a whole which is the reason why the Ottoman Sultan supported Protestantism. The enemies of Christianity want to tear us apart and make us fight one another.

Actually, I see it as a parallel to the Tower of Babel. I believe that God intended it for good. A judgement on a Church that had deviated too far from Christ's intention, and confused its own organization with the Body of Christ. Like the Tower of Babel, this was both a punishment and protection. It's protection from one church ever again being confused with the Body, or being in a position to control people in the same way. Anyway, the split was at least as much the action of the Pope as Protestant leaders.

I'd like to see more unity than we have now, both in terms of some consolidation of churches and in terms of mutual recognition among churches and cooperation. But I consider it an advantage that it's not possible to rebuild the Tower. Judgement has happened. Let's move on and not keep refighting old battles.

I believe that the reformation was a big step in the right direction, a “back to roots” movement which I believe was inspired by God. However, I also think we should recognize that the reformation in many ways would have been impossible without the invention of the printing press. I believe that the printing press was a providential invention, it multiplied the Bibles in circulation by an order of magnitude and made Bibles in the vernacular (and the reformation itself) a possibility.

Personally I find the reformers involved in Bible translation especially inspiring, for instance William Tyndale… He was a person who is more important from a cultural point of view than many realize today. “According to one writer, Tyndale is “the man who more than Shakespeare even or Bunyan has moulded and enriched our language.”” (Wikipedia.) His life was also dramatic and in the end he died for his faith.

Root of Jesse said:

Regarding being burned for heresy, this was mostly done by secular governments to help keep the kingdom in line.

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There was no such fiction as "secular governments" in the 13th to 15th centuries. They were either within the Holy Roman Empire or the Byzantine Empire. So let's face. It is the "holy" Roman Church which burned and tortured Christians, using its power over kings and governors.

Why are Christians afraid of the truth today? Almost all the Christian forums in existence tippy-toe around the brutal realities of what happened, and even now happens, in Christendom. We all wish to be "politically correct" instead of honest. The Reformers, on the other hand, had no qualms about calling the pope the Antichrist (even though that may have been historically and scripturally incorrect, since the Beast is yet to come).

It was the mighty hand of God which raised up the Reformers and the Reformation, since Satan had taken full control of the Holy Roman Empire and kept Europe in the Dark Ages for about 1,000 years. The light of the Gospel had been hidden under the lies of the Church of Rome, and that could not be allowed to continue. Unfortunately, the Reformers did not shed all the baggage that had been placed upon Christianity through Rome. For example, infant baptism was upheld and the Anabaptists were persecuted and killed.

Job8 said:

There was no such fiction as "secular governments" in the 13th to 15th centuries. They were either within the Holy Roman Empire or the Byzantine Empire. So let's face. It is the "holy" Roman Church which burned and tortured Christians, using its power over kings and governors.

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The fact remains, it was government which burned heretics. Not the Church.

Why are Christians afraid of the truth today? Almost all the Christian forums in existence tippy-toe around the brutal realities of what happened, and even now happens, in Christendom. We all wish to be "politically correct" instead of honest. The Reformers, on the other hand, had no qualms about calling the pope the Antichrist (even though that may have been historically and scripturally incorrect, since the Beast is yet to come).

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I'm not tiptoe-ing around the brutal realities. What I know is that there is the Church, and there are people who claim to be within the Church who do things in the name of the Church. A perfect example is today's ISIS. Do you really think that ISIS represents all Islam? No? Then why place the blame on the Church, when the Church never teaches that it's ok to torture or burn people?

It was the mighty hand of God which raised up the Reformers and the Reformation, since Satan had taken full control of the Holy Roman Empire and kept Europe in the Dark Ages for about 1,000 years. The light of the Gospel had been hidden under the lies of the Church of Rome, and that could not be allowed to continue. Unfortunately, the Reformers did not shed all the baggage that had been placed upon Christianity through Rome. For example, infant baptism was upheld and the Anabaptists were persecuted and killed.

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The truth is that it was the Goths, Vandals, and Huns which kept Europe in the Dark Ages, and it was the Catholic Church that preserved the Christian way of life in monasteries and in public life. There is nothing in Scripture that says infant baptism is wrong. Anabaptists were then what Jehovah's Witnesses are today. The truth is that the Reformers were just too impatient to let the Church deal with her problems, which the Church WAS dealing with. The Catholic Church has been in constant reform, the human institution, at least, since Pentecost 33 AD.