How 'bout them Duggars?

LinkH said:

Where does the Bible say, "And thou must turn thy children over to the state, and they shall put them in a foster home?

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Maybe the bible does not say this, but the officer who took the case had a "duty to report" the offense to child welfare. It's funny that the "Oprah" show took this more seriously than did a law enforcement officer. So we can't have things where a Christian family, living in a society with laws and norms of the State, gets to ignore those laws and norms.

LinkH said:

Btw, do they put minors on sexual offender registries?

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Some states do. My friend's son, whom I mentioned earlier, is on one.

Double post

LinkH said:

People living a homosexual lifestyle are perverts, but so are those in incest. Is Josh Duggar no longer allowed to say that thieves and murderers re doing wrong?

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"do you not know that the unrighteousb will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,c 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. - 1 Cor 6:9-11"

Surely, there must be a place for Josh Duggar in there somewhere.

Who better to testify to God's forgiveness of sin than somebody who's been forgiven?

To Hetta and anyone else around, yes child molestation is awful, and Josh really ought to be prosecuted, IMo, but I think it would be up to the victims to press charges. But I think our society treats it like this unforgivable sin--that and terrorism. I think if you commit these crimes you ought to be punished, but others also ought to,forgive you as well. Secular society, Imo, doesn't seem to be big on forgiving, but that's just not how things should be.

I think we really could have seen that if Josh had served time or whatever prior to the show starting and then they could have used him as an example of God's forgiveness, and how a truly Christian family still has to love and forgive its members regardless of what they do, no matter how painful it is, and no matter how long it takes.

I,don't think the problem is with the parents as much as it is with Josh and the Bill Gotherd regulations they follow. If they had just done things normally after the first incident, then maybe this wouldn't have ended so badly for the whole family. I'm very disappointed that it gives people an opportunity to say, "See, Christians are hypocrites/child molestors!" As well. I know plenty of homeschoolers, and as far as I know none of them are brainwashed, follow Bill Gotherd, or had molestation issues in their family.

LinkH said:

Of course not, but it is a risk. I spoke with a couple that are trying to start a foster care ministry and one of their concerns is that 90+% of girls who turn 18 in foster care end up in prostitution at some point in their lives. Part of that is from being turned out on the streets at 18, but I suspect being put in foster homes with kids with rough pasts when it comes to sexuality is a part of it.

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Anecdotal evidence is so much more exciting and titillating than other kinds of evidence, isn't it? Wonder why that is?

ImaginaryDay said:

Maybe the bible does not say this, but the officer who took the case had a "duty to report" the offense to child welfare.

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Maybe so. I don't know 2002 or 2003 Arkansas procedures. It could be law enforcement or child services had a 'triage' and were prioritizing more severe cases with all out rape. If the policeman did not do his duty, it doesn't make sense that posters would blame Jim Bob for that part of it, though.

So we can't have things where a Christian family, living in a society with laws and norms of the State, gets to ignore those laws and norms.

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There are lots of norms that are okay to ignore.

LinkH said:

There are lots of norms that are okay to ignore.

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Norms, and laws, about not molesting people or hiding and enabling molesters are not among them.

LinkH said:

Maybe so. I don't know 2002 or 2003 Arkansas procedures. It could be law enforcement or child services had a 'triage' and were prioritizing more severe cases with all out rape. If the policeman did not do his duty, it doesn't make sense that posters would blame Jim Bob for that part of it, though.

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Why not? If someone in the family has knowledge of a criminal act, and doesn't report it, at the least that may be reason for removing a child or children from the home.

LinkH said:

There are lots of norms that are okay to ignore.

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How did I know you would jump on that. But closer to the point, even an atheist with a conscience would know that covering up for a child molester in your own home (particularly your own son) is a pretty deviant social norm.

ImaginaryDay said:

Why not? If someone in the family has knowledge of a criminal act, and doesn't report it, at the least that may be reason for removing a child or children from the home.

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He reported the incident to a police officer who did not take it further.

How did I know you would jump on that. But closer to the point, even an atheist with a conscience would know that covering up for a child molester in your own home (particularly your own son) is a pretty deviant social norm.

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I was thinking of other norms the Duggars ignore like sending kids out to date alone in the teens and sending kids to public school. But apparently Jim Bob called the cops and told the elders of his church, at least eventually, which isn't a cover up.

Armoured said:

Anecdotal evidence is so much more exciting and titillating than other kinds of evidence, isn't it? Wonder why that is?

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I haven't been able to find any stats online on what percent of girls raised in foster care eventually become engaged in prostitution. I don't know if his stats were for Texas, where he lived, or what his source was.

LinkH said:

I haven't been able to find any stats online on what percent of girls raised in foster care eventually become engaged in prostitution. I don't know if his stats were for Texas, where he lived, or what his source was.

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Fundamental extraction, probably.

Hetta said:

No he hasn't. Not unless he was arrested and a full police investigation was carried out which, you know, us ordinary folks would have to face. They deliberately circumvented the law.

Perhaps we should just stop the normal process of law for all Christians. Let parents decide how to handle their children's transgressions, and perhaps we could extend that into adulthood where any Christian adult just has to apologize, and then we all move on. I'm sure that will teach all of those thieves, rapists and murderers not to be bad boys and girls anymore.

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You do not know what the parents did. (not in totality)

A relative of my wife was on her way to school (late 1960s) with her 2 brothers when an adult male showed up and threw money in the bushes and told the brothers to go get it. (they did) At which point he tried to rape the girl. A woman who was at work across the street and knew the family saw what happened and immediatly called her mother who came in time to stop the attempted rape. No police. The girl and her brothers never appeared in court or had to fill out statements. They never saw the guy again.

Hence is southern justice.

DaveW-Ohev said:

You do not know what the parents did. (not in totality)

A relative of my wife was on her way to school (late 1960s) with her 2 brothers when an adult male showed up and threw money in the bushes and told the brothers to go get it. (they did) At which point he tried to rape the girl. A woman who was at work across the street and knew the family saw what happened and immediatly called her mother who came in time to stop the attempted rape. No police. The girl and her brothers never appeared in court or had to fill out statements. They never saw the guy again.

Hence is southern justice.

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I love folksy southernisms as much as the next guy, but that sounds like an awful basis for a system of law for dealing with serious transgressions.

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Um, thanks for your imput?

staff edit .

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"Shaka, when the walls fell."

Btw, if your statement is related to the thread, I don't understand the metaphore.

Armoured said:

Fundamental extraction, probably.

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And you know what I have to say in response to that, "Shaka, when the walls fell."

I know what fundamental means, and I know what extraction means, but I don't know what you are saying.

Armoured said:

Anecdotal evidence is so much more exciting and titillating than other kinds of evidence, isn't it? Wonder why that is?

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The man I spoke with had started orphanages and was researching a care facility. Some anecdotal evidence is worth listening to. We wouldn't have surveys with large populations if researchers did not get ideas from real-world observations and anecdotal evidence. But there may be some research to support the man's claim. I can't find it thought.. When I search I read about kids in actual foster care who go into prostitution as minors, which makes his claim seem feasible.

Hetta said,

No he hasn't. Not unless he was arrested and a full police investigation was carried out which, you know, us ordinary folks would have to face. They deliberately circumvented the law.

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Did God supernaturally reveal to you that the Duggars deliberately circumvented the law? The dad got a police officer involved. How would you know, beyond your feelings and guesswork that Jim Bob did something to circumvent justice.

I believe this is a good time to apply the 'judge not' verse.

Perhaps we should just stop the normal process of law for all Christians. Let parents decide how to handle their children's transgressions, and perhaps we could extend that into adulthood where any Christian adult just has to apologize, and then we all move on. I'm sure that will teach all of those thieves, rapists and murderers not to be bad boys and girls anymore.

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There are a lot of situations where a parent is not required to report a crime. If your 16-year-old takes your car without permission, it's your choice whether or not to report that as a theft to the police. Some parents may choose to do so in some cases. Some would not, and would handle it themselves. If your 5-year-old steals a nickel from you, knowing full well that it was wrong, I suppose you could try to report that to the police, too. But if you aren't legally required to, you probably wouldn't do that. Most parents would report it if there were a legal requirement.

Lots of parents have kids that do things that are illegal, and catch them. Is a parent ethically required to report busting his child for underage drinking or illegal marijuana use? If it isn't a legal requirement, is it unethical for a parent to discipline the child and deal with the situation using other means without reporting drug use to the state?

Has your son, in his youth, ever done anything technically illegal that you could have turned him in to the police for?

The Duggars apparently aren't a big fan of the idea of the state owning their children. I haven't heard them say anything about it, but a lot of Christian homeschool families don't believe the state should be raising their kids. And they'd prefer to discipline them in the home or through their church in some cases. If there is no legal requirement for them to report, you can't accuse them of breaking the law.

And can you really say that what a state determines to do with children reported for molestation does is automatically 'justice'? If that is the case, why doesn't it vary from state to state. Parents can also mete out justice. We don't know what all Josh Duggar faced as a result of this, besides going to stay elsewhere for a while. The kids got counseling. . But you shouldn't be accusing someone of breaking the law if you don't know that he did. And you shouldn't malign someone's character without evidence, either.

DaveW-Ohev said:

You do not know what the parents did. (not in totality)

A relative of my wife was on her way to school (late 1960s) with her 2 brothers when an adult male showed up and threw money in the bushes and told the brothers to go get it. (they did) At which point he tried to rape the girl. A woman who was at work across the street and knew the family saw what happened and immediatly called her mother who came in time to stop the attempted rape. No police. The girl and her brothers never appeared in court or had to fill out statements. They never saw the guy again.

Hence is southern justice.

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By never saw the guy again do you mean NO ONE ever saw the guy again?

Good questions Link!



In the Duggars case it is unethical for Mr. Jim_Bob to not involve the state. Why? Because Jim-Bob is heavily involved in the state’s involvement in private lives. “From 1999 to 2002, Duggar served in the Arkansas House of Representatives for the sixth district, which included part of northern Washington County, Arkansas, Duggar was vice chair of the House Corrections and Criminal Law Subcommittee…” Jim-Bob has been involved in a lot of political organizations and unsuccessfully ran for senate in 2002. The Family Research Council that he is a member of is very active in trying to get the state to pass laws about families and sexual issues.

With Mr. Duggar’s heavy involvement with the state and the state’s laws regarding families, it word be unethical for him to take the position that in his case, with a son that has molested, to exclude the state!





Yes my son did commit an illegal activity (not molestation) and I did not turn him in. However on several other occasions I did turn him in.

I am very skeptical of parents that claim that they would always turn their minor child in for committing an illegal act or that they would never try to take care of the issue within the family and some outside help. People say that they would always report the child and I say talk is cheap and when it gets down to your minor child I think many parents would fail to report the child to the police. Of course it depends a lot on the illegal crime does it not?

I think a lot of people are influenced and outraged by the fact that Mr. Jim-Bob Duggar is so active in laws against sexual issues yet he did not take actions against his son according to his own statement in his quest for the senate in 2002. Repeated below is what Mr. Dugger said

Jim-Bob Duggar said: Rape and incest represent heinous crimes and as such should be treated as capital crimes.

You do not asses capital punishment for a minor of 14 years old in the USA. Although Jim-Bob was probably referring to adults in his statement above, his recent news about his son will really infuriate many people. He did turn his son into a police officer, got him counseling, and sent him to a work camp to help build homes but that is miles away from capital punishment.

With Jim-Bob’s statement above and his actions regarding his son’s molestation he deserves to not only be called out on that but also to expect the disgust that he is getting from some people.

However, I think some of the other disgust and berating of the Duggar parents is because the Duggars have a different way of living their life based upon their interpretation of the Bible. Most of that berating is based on the berater’s personal opinions and most are not because the Duggers are violating scriptures.