Double-Take: How the Middle East IS Northeast Africa historically & had Image Change

Zoness · Nov 24, 2013

This is certainly an interesting discussion and I've not really considered it much. Though I was in a TeamSpeak server chat while playing EU4 and a group of us were discussing this very subject (probably because I was playing Mamluks and someone else was playing Morocco) and people were divided. Culturally I think Egypt is probably more "middle eastern" than African but geographically well, they're part of Africa. I'm not sure how comparable North African Islam is to Middle Eastern Islam, I'm assuming religion and language is what unifies both regions.

But of course, I think "Arab" in the West is more synonymous with the religious, cultural and linguistic properties of people from the middle east and north Africa. I guess maybe that's worth discussing.

Gxg (G²) · Nov 27, 2013

Zoness said:
This is certainly an interesting discussion and I've not really considered it much. Though I was in a TeamSpeak server chat while playing EU4 and a group of us were discussing this very subject (probably because I was playing Mamluks and someone else was playing Morocco) and people were divided.

It is interesting how it often seems that games such as the ones you noted tend to get people to consider discussions that don't arise in other places - as I've had other thoughts when playing games such as Age of Empires....my favorite being the Persians (Age of Empires) ^_^

Culturally I think Egypt is probably more "middle eastern" than African but geographically well, they're part of Africa. I'm not sure how comparable North African Islam is to Middle Eastern Islam, I'm assuming religion and language is what unifies both regions

But of course, I think "Arab" in the West is more synonymous with the religious, cultural and linguistic properties of people from the middle east and north Africa. I guess maybe that's worth discussing

With Egypt, I think what is an issue for many is that people are quick to say it's more "Middle-Eastern" than African and yet it's largely due to the influence of the Media which often downplays the aspect of African culture that was prominent in multiple places of history....

Of course, language is what unites regions when it comes to North African Islam and Islam in other parts of the world - but as it concerns the people present in other places, it's easy to assume that a dominant group CURRENT in an area is definition of how it has always been....and even the terms "Middle-Eastern" being used to define things are never questioned when it comes to showing where the term came from - or showing if it's even accurate.

For where - as asked before - was there ever an eternal distinction between Middle East and North Africa, when the area deemed "Middle East" used to be called "Northeast Africa" to begin with?

Gxg (G²) · Jul 6, 2014

Sadden to know what happened with the killing Black Iraqi rights activist Jalal Thiyab. But thankful for the work that was preceding him as well - the Movement of Free Iraqis..

And in light of what's occurring with the ISIS crisis in Iraq, praying for none of the gains that have occurred to be lost in all of the mess that has gone down.

Gxg (G²) · May 23, 2015

Gxg (G²) said:
Sadden to know what happened with the killing Black Iraqi rights activist Jalal Thiyab. But thankful for the work that was preceding him as well - the Movement of Free Iraqis..

And in light of what's occurring with the ISIS crisis in Iraq, praying for none of the gains that have occurred to be lost in all of the mess that has gone down.

For anyone interested,

One of my dear friends in the Coptic Orthodox Church pointed me in the direction of one prominent group in Egypt that many are not aware of...if aware of Mandaeism or the Mandaic. For more, here's an Audio slideshow displayin Iranian Mandaeans performing ablution on the banks of the Karun river in Ahvaz....

And for others:

The Mandaeans: The Last Gnostics - Page 129

http://www.hollandsentinel.com/x1558731033/Saving-the-people-killing-the-faith

smaneck · May 24, 2015

Of course we all know by now that humanity originated in Africa, but Semitic peoples in particular which includes both Jews and Arabs emigrated from N.E. Africa probably only about five thousand years ago. But if we are talking about culture there is no real barrier dividing Africa from Asia or Europe from Asia for that matter. When I teach World History I divide the globe into three areas, Afroeurasia, Americas, Oceania/Australia. Even those three categories don't mean much after the 16th century. Here is an article you might look at:

http://homepage.smc.edu/morris_pete/resources/Papers-and-Presentations/continents.pdf

Had a similar dialogue with another when we were talking about the situation with King Solomon in 1 Kings 10/2 Chronicles 9 with his meeting with the Queen of Sheba - as I've heard many say, counter to what Ethiopian Orthodox Christians claim, that Sheba was from the country of Yemen rather than from Ethiopia.....and although I can see how that would logically make sense, it was always fascinating that part of the underlying reason behind why others didn't want Sheba to be from Ethiopia was because there was more focus in saying it was a Middle-Eastern country she hailed from rather than an African one..

For much of history Ethiopia and Yemen were part of the same country, just as Spain and Morocco were.

But even if she wasn't from Ethiopia, it is still amazing to see how much trouble many go through in order to claim that the Queen of Sheba could NEVER have been from a great African nation (in their minds) and yet don't acknowledge if more is up than they realize. This is also said in light of how often it seems Jews who come from African background have been fiercly questioned as to their identity as Hebrews (some even denied the right to be in Israel) even though they could easily point out their Semitic heritage

Semite is a much larger category than being Jewish or even Hebrew. I congratulate the Israelis for airlifting the Falashas to Israel when they were starving, but they have done far too little to integrate them into Israeli society. The first time I went Israel back in '78 it was Israeli Arabs and Oriental Jews who were at the bottom of the heap. Now it is the Falashas and their condition was really pitiful.

smaneck · May 24, 2015

Mu3lam said:
I thought the "Middle East" was part of Asia. I live in Iraq. We are Asia Minor. Not Africa. Not "Middle East". Asia Minor. Or Arabia (though Arabia generally refers to the Arabian Peninsula).

Asia Minor would be Anatolia or Turkey.

smaneck · May 24, 2015

Gxg (G²) said:
Afro-Iraqis come to mind as one group that others are often not aware of - despite where there were connections due to the Assyrians and Nubian connections - both in fighting and temporary alliances at one point (more here and here) and other events - some of which still have a negative effect to this day sadly (even though the same has happened to other blacks in other lands deemed "Middle East" today):

In regards to Black Iraqis, I can give you some background on this. During the Umayyad Dynasty the irrigation system of Mesopotamia had fallen into disrepair. Black Africans slaves known as Zanj were brought in as navies (ditch-diggers) to drain the marshes. It was grueling, backbreaking labor. The Zanj adopted the Shi'ite version of Islam as a sort of liberation theology and at the end of the ninth century they staged one of the more successful slave revolts in history. It took more than fifty years to put it down and they were joined by many of the Iraqi peasantry. Afterwards Muslims were very reluctant to use African slaves for this kind of mass hard labor. While they were still used this way on sugar plantations in some areas or longshoremen in the Persian Gulf, most Muslims preferred to use Africans as household slaves. Men were often made into eunuchs so the women of the household would be save around them. Women were preferred and besides being maids, they often became concubines. Since relations with a slave concubine was considered legitimate in Islam, the offspring from such unions were likewise legitimate and potential heirs to the father. Typically a concubine who gave birth to her master's child would be freed. For that reason, even though Muslims probably brought as many slaves out of Africa as did Europeans, we don't find the huge diaspora communities in the Middle East like we do in America. There are exceptions, however, such as the Marsh Arabs of Iraq, or those who live on the coast of Iran. In India during the Mughal Dynasty, the navy was made up of African slaves known as Siddis. They form a separate caste in India, only intermarrying with other high-caste Muslims.

smaneck · May 24, 2015

Gxg (G²) said:
For anyone interested,

One of my dear friends in the Coptic Orthodox Church pointed me in the direction of one prominent group in Egypt that many are not aware of...if aware of Mandaeism or the Mandaic. For more, here's an Audio slideshow displayin Iranian Mandaeans performing ablution on the banks of the Karun river in Ahvaz....

I believe the Mandaeans consider John the Baptist their prophet.

Gxg (G²) · May 24, 2015

smaneck said:
there is no real barrier dividing Africa from Asia or Europe from Asia for that matter. When I teach World History I divide the globe into three areas, Afroeurasia, Americas, Oceania/Australia. Even those three categories don't mean much after the 16th century. Here is an article you might look at:

http://homepage.smc.edu/morris_pete/resources/Papers-and-Presentations/continents.pdf

Excellent article on the ways continents can be highly subjective...

Architeuthus · May 25, 2015

Well, there is little historical connection between Sub-Saharan ("Black") Africa and Middle Eastern culture. And, really, modern categories like "Europe" and "Africa" are not really relevant to civilisations from 2,000 years ago.

Key maps would be these:

The Hellenistic world (Greek-ruled successor kingdoms to Alexander the Great):

The Roman world in 47 AD:

The spread of Christianity:

smaneck · May 25, 2015

Architeuthus said:
Well, there is little historical connection between Sub-Saharan ("Black") Africa and Middle Eastern culture. And, really, modern categories like "Europe" and "Africa" are not really relevant to civilisations from 2,000 years ago.

There are plenty of connections between East Africa and Middle Eastern Culture. Keep in mind that black Africans from Nubia ruled Egypt at the time of the Assyrian invasions. And the connections between Abyssinia and Yemen were almost indistinguishable. Semitic peoples originated in the northeastern part of Africa. We have no way of knowing what their original skin color was, but the semitic speakers (Amharic) found today in Africa are quite dark (though they would deny this.)

Architeuthus · May 25, 2015

smaneck said:
Keep in mind that black Africans from Nubia ruled Egypt at the time of the Assyrian invasions.

True, although that was only for a (relatively speaking) brief period. And it reflects the fact that, rather than modern categories like "Europe" and "Africa," the category "Nile valley" is a historically important one.

From the point of view of the spread of Christianity, the most important category is "Mediterranean Sea." We tend to split the shores of that sea into "Europe," "Africa," and "Middle East," but that reflects a post-639 view of the world. For the Romans, the world ran from the waters of the Mediterranean Sea to the desert, the Danube, and other natural boundaries.

Similarly, there were critically important cultural exchanges within the area that Alexander the Great conquered, which included Egypt and the former Persian Empire, but which became the "Hellenistic World" (see the first of my 3 maps).

smaneck said:
And the connections between Abyssinia and Yemen were almost indistinguishable.

But largely peripheral to the bigger picture: there were small independent kingdoms in the Abyssinia/Yemen area that traded with (but were not part of) the larger empires to the north.

smaneck said:
Semitic peoples originated in the northeastern part of Africa.

I'm not sure how you "know" that, but ultimately everybody originated in Africa. If you accept the Nostratic hypothesis, the Semitic languages cluster with the Indo-European and Dravidian languages.

Gxg (G²) · May 25, 2015

smaneck said:
I believe the Mandaeans consider John the Baptist their prophet.

To my knowledge, that is largely the case because others assumed their baptising culture was based in John the Baptist - although it preceeded it. For good documentary on the issue:

Gxg (G²) · May 25, 2015

smaneck said:
In regards to Black Iraqis, I can give you some background on this. During the Umayyad Dynasty the irrigation system of Mesopotamia had fallen into disrepair. Black Africans slaves known as Zanj were brought in as navies (ditch-diggers) to drain the marshes. It was grueling, backbreaking labor. The Zanj adopted the Shi'ite version of Islam as a sort of liberation theology and at the end of the ninth century they staged one of the more successful slave revolts in history. It took more than fifty years to put it down and they were joined by many of the Iraqi peasantry. Afterwards Muslims were very reluctant to use African slaves for this kind of mass hard labor. While they were still used this way on sugar plantations in some areas or longshoremen in the Persian Gulf, most Muslims preferred to use Africans as household slaves. Men were often made into eunuchs so the women of the household would be save around them. Women were preferred and besides being maids, they often became concubines. Since relations with a slave concubine was considered legitimate in Islam, the offspring from such unions were likewise legitimate and potential heirs to the father. Typically a concubine who gave birth to her master's child would be freed. For that reason, even though Muslims probably brought as many slaves out of Africa as did Europeans, we don't find the huge diaspora communities in the Middle East like we do in America. There are exceptions, however, such as the Marsh Arabs of Iraq, or those who live on the coast of Iran. In India during the Mughal Dynasty, the navy was made up of African slaves known as Siddis. They form a separate caste in India, only intermarrying with other high-caste Muslims.

I am aware of the Zanj Revolt as I recall coming across that in one of the news updates I receive from history resources. One of them in example:

THE ZANJ REVOLT

The largest revolt by enslaved Africans was ignited by the Zanj against Arab slavers. The Zanj or Zinj were the inhabitants of the land along the coast of East Africa. They were traded as slaves by Arabs and were made to work in the cruel and humid saltpans of Shatt-al-Arab, near Basra in modern-day Iraq. Conscious of their large numbers and oppressive working conditions, the Zanj rebelled three times.

The largest of these rebellions lasted from 868 to 883 A.D., during which they inflicted repeated defeat on Arab armies sent to suppress the revolt. For some 14 years, they continued to achieve remarkable military victories and even built their own capital–Moktara, the Elect City.

source: africanholocaust.net

I thought it was fascinating to see the ways that they were able to resist for so long...and as it concerns Africans brought into Islamic territories, it is sad to see how little the slave trade was discussed for what it was.

Gxg (G²) · May 25, 2015

sevengreenbeans said:
This is a very interesting topic. I agree with what you've stated about maps affecting the way people see things. Studying people groups without maps isn't a very effective way of studying, in my opinion. The Middle East as North Eastern Africa makes a lot of sense. I like what you had to say about being visually affected, as well.

On a side note, here's something from one of the men I greatly appreciate for historical perspective - as it concerns the extensive legacy of Africa and seeing how much it has impacted more than people realize...

One of his most important presentations related to the issue of the recent film called "Exodus: Gods and Kings" by Ridley Scott (which was banned in Egypt due to the racism and historical inaccuracies ) and the ways that it seemed to leave out a lot of the African context which Biblical culture derived from

ridley-scotts-upcoming-film-exodus-gods-kings-has-been-slammed-whitewashing-ancient.jpg

smaneck · May 25, 2015

Architeuthus said:
I'm not sure how you "know" that, but ultimately everybody originated in Africa. If you accept the Nostratic hypothesis, the Semitic languages cluster with the Indo-European and Dravidian languages.

I don't think I buy the Nosratic hypothesis. Dravidian peoples ancestry dates from the very first migrations out of Africa, some 60,000 years ago. The ancestors of Indo-European peoples probably left some 25-30,000 years ago. Semites may have migrated from Africa as late as 5,000 or 6,000 years ago. And some of them never did.

smaneck · May 25, 2015

Gxg (G²) said:
To my knowledge, that is largely the case because others assumed their baptising culture was based in John the Baptist - although it preceeded it. For good documentary on the issue:

Except they themselves places a good deal of emphasis on John the Baptist.

Gxg (G²) · May 25, 2015

smaneck said:
Except they themselves places a good deal of emphasis on John the Baptist.

Which would go back to showing why it is said that they place a lot of emphasis on John the Baptist and where. It was not in the same way as Christianity, of course - and as another noted, most scholars are of the opinion that the references to John the Baptist in the Mandaean literature are late, and that neither John nor his disciples are in any way connected to the rise of the Mandaean cult. ...for Christian missionaries of the 17th century saw in them the descendants of the "disciples of John the Baptist" until they later realized what exactly it was they believed and how radically different it was in their beliefs compared to John the Baptist.

smaneck · May 25, 2015

Gxg (G²) said:
I thought it was fascinating to see the ways that they were able to resist for so long...and as it concerns Africans brought into Islamic territories, it is sad to see how little the slave trade was discussed for what it was.

There is quite a bit of good work in this area, mostly by Ronald Segal, a white South African famous for his struggle against apartheid.

Gxg (G²) · May 25, 2015

smaneck said:
There is quite a bit of good work in this area, mostly by Ronald Segal, a white South African famous for his struggle against apartheid.

He is definitely an excellent read

Double-Take: How the Middle East IS Northeast Africa historically & had Image Change

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