Disobedience has consequences.

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ToddNotTodd

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It's simple alright...... Don't you ever feel bad that you actually cant come up with a good argument? It's gotta suck to have to rely on sarcasm, and twisting facts instead of actually having facts that can make a case.

Maybe you should come back at me and call me a meanie butt head, or tell me my God is false..... That will show me! Flick boogers or whatever it is that you do. It sure makes me look stupid.

Lol. What I posted was the logical consequences of your statements. You were the one that said your god hates religion. Accepting your premise as true results in the conclusion I stated.

I'm guessing the rest of your petulent reply is just a smoke screen.
 
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Eudaimonist

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What if I told you an Atheist's idea of proving God exists is subjective?

That's easy. You'd be mistaken. I accept the existence of a reality outside of my own mind about which personal opinions may be correct or incorrect.

That is to say, personal opinion cannot change the truth.

Obviously.

The problem is, the atheist’s burden of proof is an opinion, and one should not test truths using opinions because truths are always true independently of individual opinion or personal conviction.

Atheists are not looking for mere opinions, but rather opinions that are based on some cognitive contact with reality. That's why they will usually ask for evidence to back up Christian opinions about God's existence.

When the atheists say, “prove to me that God exists” or “prove to me that Christianity is true,” many of them have a different burden of proof in mind.

That doesn't make their efforts subjective either in intent or practice. Or do the differences in opinion of Christians regarding Christian doctrine make that all subjective?

One might ask, “If God exists, why doesn’t he heal amputees?” Another will ask, “Why is it that God won’t just come down and show himself to me?” Another may say, “If God exists, he can prove himself to me by ridding the world of evil and suffering.” Perhaps another atheist will ignorantly say, “If God exists, he would be testable by the scientific method.” Different atheists will give different levels and conditions concerning what constitutes as meeting the burden of proof.

Yes, and that is precisely how one avoids epistemological subjectivism. It is what makes a Christian's opinion more than a mere opinion. It is how one attempts to discern just what sort of reality exists outside of mere opinion.

If we are to be justified in believing in any proposition, we must have a concrete way to test the truth of propositions.

Agreed, and that is what atheists are providing when they speak of evidence, even if they provide different hurdles. Jumping those hurdles is what creates greater levels of justified confidence in the conclusions. There is more than one way to do this, which is why there are different hurdles.

If the burden of proof for any truth is subjective, then anyone can be justified in believing in any proposition, including Christianity

Yes, and many Christians fall into that boat by ignoring the need for evidence, or by insisting on "concrete" evidence that is anything but.

If the atheist is to hold that we ought to test the truth of propositions in a subjective manner, then no proposition is ultimately provable.

I agree, but atheists rarely do this.

The epistemological implications on the atheist worldview is devastating.

Of your straw man atheist with your flawed views on epistemology, yes.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Eudaimonist

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Out of interest Mark, do you know what LostMarbels is saying, and do you think that this is a misunderstanding of words, and that LostMarbels is making a fair point with airtight logic?

I'm saying that ToddNotTodd has provided a valid syllogism. It is his syllogism that is airtight.

LostMarbels has some deeply flawed views on epistemology. He may, of course, attempt to argue that God hates religious Christianity, or that Christianity is not a religion at all.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Archaeopteryx

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My point was I cannot imagine how He would do that and still achieve the same result. I asked you whether you had an idea in mind. Are you able to imagine how this would be possible?
I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you saying that God could not do this?
 
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oi_antz

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I'm saying that ToddNotTodd has provided a valid syllogism. It is his syllogism that is airtight.

LostMarbels has some deeply flawed views on epistemology, and I never did agree with the whole "Christianity is not a religion!" apologetic.


eudaimonia,

Mark
Ok, I too do not agree that Christianity is not a religion. But I do agree that Christianity's message is about promoting real faith in God rather than religious ritual and superficial behaviours/beliefs, as is described by Jesus "hypocritical Pharisee's! You are careful to polish the outside of the cup [that you can appear to be clean], but inside you are foul". So, if I was saying the same thing as LostMarbels, I would have chosen different words. But the words he has chosen are actually valid for hat he is saying. I think you are applying different meaning to his words (which is also valid meaning) and arriving at a different meaning than he is intending.

Do you accept that?
 
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oi_antz

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You cannot imagine God intervening to prevent something horrible from happening?
Not every time, because that would probably make the world a very unpredictable place. Eg, a car would not move when there is an ant in it's path.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Not every time, because that would probably make the world a very unpredictable place. Eg, a car would not move when there is an ant in it's path.
The Bible recounts several instances in which God directly intervened in human affairs. So I don't understand why you have difficulty imagining it.
 
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oi_antz

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The Bible recounts several instances in which God directly intervened in human affairs. So I don't understand why you have difficulty imagining it.
Yes, those are miracles. I accept He is able to, but I don't think He wants to be the one who has to completely run the universe. It seems pretty clear that from the very beginning, He "made man in His image" - which means that mankind is intended to have that role. But mankind has chosen to do something with that power that God has not intended. So what, should He throw the laws of physics out the window? If you jump off a cliff you don't hit the ground? You can shoot to kill for food but not for fun? I cannot imagine that world. Please confirm that this is the sort of world you have in mind, and then I will have another question for you. Or maybe you want to think more about it first, because it seems like maybe you haven't really thought it through yet.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Yes, those are miracles. I accept He is able to, but I don't think He wants to be the one who has to completely run the universe. It seems pretty clear that from the very beginning, He "made man in His image" - which means that mankind is intended to have that role. But mankind has chosen to do something with that power that God has not intended. So what, should He throw the laws of physics out the window? If you jump off a cliff you don't hit the ground? You can shoot to kill for food but not for fun? I cannot imagine that world. Please confirm that this is the sort of world you have in mind, and then I will have another question for you. Or maybe you want to think more about it first, because it seems like maybe you haven't really thought it through yet.
So you cannot imagine Heaven?
 
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oi_antz

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So you cannot imagine Heaven?
I imagine heaven being a place that laws of physics are reliable, but what I have described (as a guess of what you are wishing for) is a very different type of world than what I have ever imagined. Can you imagine that someone can hit another person for sport but if they try to hit another person to inflict harm, their arm will be unable to move? Unless you correct me, all I am going to see is this very unreliable world where basically nothing works as expected.
 
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oi_antz

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So you cannot imagine Heaven?
Oh, and FWIW, no I do not trust that my imagination of heaven is particularly accurate, but I do have some ideas of why it should be better than present, based on the fact that only those who are willing to make it heaven will be there.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I imagine heaven being a place that laws of physics are reliable, but what I have described (as a guess of what you are wishing for) is a very different type of world than what I have ever imagined. Can you imagine that someone can hit another person for sport but if they try to hit another person to inflict harm, their arm will be unable to move? Unless you correct me, all I am going to see is this very unreliable world where basically nothing works as expected.
Expectations would need to be adjusted. But why is that problematic in itself? The laws of physics would still apply. But one person would not be able to effectively harm another.
 
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oi_antz

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Expectations would need to be adjusted. But why is that problematic in itself? The laws of physics would still apply. But one person would not be able to effectively harm another.
Can you please describe this more? Especially, what would stop them from being "able" to harm each other?
 
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oi_antz

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What would stop them? God intervening to stop them.
Yes, this is what I said before - that He would need to control the entire universe. But it is very apparent that He doesn't want that. Ask any Christian about this, every single one of them will tell you "God does not want robots, He wants us to be responsible and to do the right thing, willingly and happily". So you are saying that He should tolerate people wanting to do the wrong thing, and actually step in to prevent them from doing the wrong thing? IIRC, He appears to have got sick of having to contend with humans who refused to do the right thing, and shortened their lifespan, apparently as a result: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+6:3&version=NIV

.. Perhaps you can imagine God in that situation, and just think about it. Would He want to be constantly watching every single move to make sure that someone is not going to hurt someone else? And what would He do then if someone finds out that it is fun to make Him run around like a dog chasing a stick? .. Yeah, it doesn't seem likely that God would want the world to be like that, so I am really struggling to imagine that being a real solution too.

What is your thought in response to that? Do you think that is a really viable solution? Do you think I have failed to envisage what you are describing? Do you think I have made some error?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Yes, this is what I said before - that He would need to control the entire universe. But it is very apparent that He doesn't want that. Ask any Christian about this, every single one of them will tell you "God does not want robots, He wants us to be responsible and to do the right thing, willingly and happily". So you are saying that He should tolerate people wanting to do the wrong thing, and actually step in to prevent them from doing the wrong thing? IIRC, He appears to have got sick of having to contend with humans who refused to do the right thing, and shortened their lifespan, apparently as a result: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+6:3&version=NIV

How would his intervention render us robots? When law enforcement intervenes to prevent a crime from transpiring, are they undermining the "free will" of the would-be criminals? Should they allow criminal activity to go unchecked out of respect for free will?

.. Perhaps you can imagine God in that situation, and just think about it. Would He want to be constantly watching every single move to make sure that someone is not going to hurt someone else? And what would He do then if someone finds out that it is fun to make Him run around like a dog chasing a stick? .. Yeah, it doesn't seem likely that God would want the world to be like that, so I am really struggling to imagine that being a real solution too.

What is your thought in response to that? Do you think that is a really viable solution? Do you think I have failed to envisage what you are describing? Do you think I have made some error?

You are basically asking why would God want to prevent evil. I would think that the most obvious answer is that he is ostensibly omnibenevolent.
 
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oi_antz

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How would his intervention ender us robots? When law enforcement intervenes to prevent a crime from transpiring, are they undermining the "free will" of the would-be criminals? Should they allow criminal activity to go unchecked out of respect for free will?

You are basically asking why would God want to prevent evil. I would think that the most obvious answer is that he is ostensibly omnibenevolent.
I rather view that He wants to eliminate evil, as that is the conclusion that the whole Christian faith draws us to make, and He wants the world to be one that is naturally opposed to evil and loves to do good.

Maybe I should bring you to consider what happened to Jesus in this context, because probably that is the most potent example we can use. We have Jesus walking around being the forgiving person, preaching good news, encouraging people to worship God in spirit and in truth, to turn away from sin, to not condemn each other but forgive them, telling the religious leaders that they are not serving God's interests, etc as I reckon you know. Now given that the [world] actually murdered Him without any real reason except that He was undermining their possession of religious authority (translates to social control at that time), and they chose to release Barabbas the murderer in lieu of Jesus the good shepherd, think about what sort of task you are expecting God to accept in your view of the ideal world. You are expecting Him to contend with people who hate Him, who do not like what He is doing against them, who utterly resent Him and who literally want to kill Him and enslave everyone under their control.

I just cannot picture this as being anything but ruling by force, which makes those people compliant against their will, which is to operate under orders instead of under free will. Chritians will describe this as a robotic type of life, where our actions are dictated by God instead of us having freedom to just do what we like to do.

That might be the sort of world you would prefer, and I am not saying you are wrong to prefer it. All I am saying is that it would not achieve the same result, and I am showing you that I think I can understand why God would not want to have that result.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I rather view that He wants to eliminate evil, as that is the conclusion that the whole Christian faith draws us to make, and He wants the world to be one that is naturally opposed to evil and loves to do good.

Maybe I should bring you to consider what happened to Jesus in this context, because probably that is the most potent example we can use. We have Jesus walking around being the forgiving person, preaching good news, encouraging people to worship God in spirit and in truth, to turn away from sin, to not condemn each other but forgive them, telling the religious leaders that they are not serving God's interests, etc as I reckon you know. Now given that the [world] actually murdered Him without any real reason except that He was undermining their possession of religious authority (translates to social control at that time), and they chose to release Barabbas the murderer in lieu of Jesus the good shepherd, think about what sort of task you are expecting God to accept in your view of the ideal world. You are expecting Him to contend with people who hate Him, who do not like what He is doing against them, who utterly resent Him and who literally want to kill Him and enslave everyone under their control.

I just cannot picture this as being anything but ruling by force, which makes those people compliant against their will, which is to operate under orders instead of under free will. Chritians will describe this as a robotic type of life, where our actions are dictated by God instead of us having freedom to just do what we like to do.

That might be the sort of world you would prefer, and I am not saying you are wrong to prefer it. All I am saying is that it would not achieve the same result, and I am showing you that I think I can understand why God would not want to have that result.
In what way would his intervention make us robots? If you are in a position to help someone who is being assaulted, at little or no risk to yourself, do you stand idly by out of respect for the "free will" of the assailant? Do you decline to act out of fear that your intervention would somehow make the assailant a "robot"? Is the assailant's "free will" more important to you than the wellbeing of the person being assaulted? Your refusal to act in this situation would be considered a moral failure, especially if the cost of intervening was negligible. How much more of a moral failure would it be if one deliberately refused to intervene when one's resources were inexhaustible?
 
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