Islam

SuperCloud said:

I didn't know the portion I put in bold. Yeah, I guess that would cut back on having multiple wives.

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And multiple Mothers-in-Law too

This statement will get me into a whole lot of bother from my female friends on this site. Sorry, ladies

jared1236 said:

What are your views on Islam?

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Wow. Well how do i start? Perhaps you ask because you wish to debate Christianity with a muslim. That is not what I do. I keep the quran separate from the bible and steer all conversations away from the bible. Here are some basics on Islamic propaganda:
1) muslims worship their 'allah' by criticizing/ fighting Christian dogma and jewish beliefs. It is actually something in their daily prayers, called rak'a. This is their daily prayer: "Guide us to the straight path, the path of those whom You have favored, Not of those who have incurred your wrath (Jews*), nor of those who have gone astray (Christians*)." *-emphasis mine
2) If debating bible believers is part of their "worship", there is no point in counter-arguing with biblical material. They approach the debate with their minds set against the bible and its contents. Its as though islam was made to make its believers "disbelieve" in the bible. An example of this: What if I could develop a religion that is centered on falsifying the movie Star Wars. Its worshipers would criticize everything about the Star Wars series and find faults in everything. They would never believe in even one scene from the movie. They would never allow themselves to be swayed by someone defending the movie. Someone who uses any material from the movie in defense of the movie would be ignored.

Niblo said:

Asmā' bint Abu Bakr was born around 594 AD. She was ten years older than her half-sister Aisha. This places Aisha’s birth at around 604 AD.

Muhammad was born around 570 AD; and is said to have married Aisha when he was fifty (in 620 AD). This means that Aisha must have been at least sixteen at the time of her marriage, and not six.

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I was tempted to correct the charge that Muhammad was a child molester, but when Rider showed himself to be so ignorant of Islam that he imagined all this nonsense was in the Qur'an I figured, why bother? Just tell him its not in the Qur'an, and maybe he will actually check to see what it says.
I would agree that the young age ascribed to Aisha does not fit the known chronology. In any case, no child molester would wait three years.

To continue:
3) The best approach is to point out the falsehoods in the quran. That is all I do and muslims do listen.
Here is an example of something I use: Jewish rabbi wrote many books called Talmud. Part of this volume of material is something called Mishnah. Within this volume of material, one rabbi named Huna wrote material on Adam and Eve. One is the story of a raven that dug the ground to show Adam how to bury his dead. This material is expository, meant to bring clarity to the stories found in the Bible. They are not actually Biblical accounts. Talmud is also called "oral" because they are stories; some were bedtime stories for children. One of these stories by Huna ended up plagiarized into the quran, sura 5.31. Here is sura 5.31 "Then allah sent a raven, who scratched the ground, to show him how to hide the shame of his brother. "Woe is me!" said he; "Was I not even able to be as this raven, and to hide the shame of my brother?" then he became full of regrets -"
Now here is the original story by Huna. A clear work of plagiarism. This convinces muslims to abandon the quran.

Masihi said:

1) muslims worship their 'allah' by criticizing/ fighting Christian dogma and jewish beliefs. It is actually something in their daily prayers, called rak'a. This is their daily prayer: "Guide us to the straight path, the path of those whom You have favored, Not of those who have incurred your wrath (Jews*), nor of those who have gone astray (Christians*)." *-emphasis mine

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You find one bigoted 'alim online who interpreted these verses in this bizarre way and assume this is what all Muslims are thinking when they say their Salat. Sounds like you and this akhund share a lot in common.

Masihi said:

One of these stories by Huna ended up plagiarized into the quran, sura 5.31. Here is sura 5.31 "Then God sent a raven, who scratched the ground, to show him how to hide the shame of his brother. "Woe is me!" said he; "Was I not even able to be as this raven, and to hide the shame of my brother?" then he became full of regrets -"
Now here is the original story by Huna. A clear work of plagiarism. This convinces muslims to abandon the quran.

Raven

• Masihi
• May 25, 2015

Mishnah2

• Masihi
• May 25, 2015

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You can't plagiarize a text you can't read. The Prophet was illiterate. But yes, many of the stories in the Qur'an can be found in both Jewish and Christian oral traditions. Why would this cause any Muslim to abandon Islam? Does the story of the Ark and Flood found in the Epic of Gilgamesh cause Christians to abandon Christianity?

My opinion of Islam is, like most religions, there is a lot that is lovely, beautiful, and worthy of respect and admiration. But, as a Christian, I consider Islam deeply flawed, just as I think of other religions. Christianity and Islam make mutually exclusive claims, about God, about Jesus, etc so at the very least one of them is wrong (and it's possible that both are wrong).

When looking at other religions I would prefer to try and see the good in it. To see what there is to be appreciated and admired. There will always be things in religions that I don't admire; but focusing on those instead of what is admirable seems like an invitation to looking down on the people who follow that religion. And I don't want to do that. There's entirely too much hate, prejudice, and bigotry in the world as it is--I have no desire to contribute to that; and when I look to the Jesus as He is found in the Gospels I see a Jesus who calls on His followers to be a compassionate, loving, peaceable people who love mercy and justice, who genuinely love other people regardless of who they are. That is the Jesus I meet in Scripture, that is the Jesus I meet in the teachings of the Christian Church, that is the Jesus I meet in the Eucharist--the Jesus who suffers, who bleeds, who meets the unloved and the unlovely in their agony and agonizes with them: who gives His life for them.

-CryptoLutheran

Jared, you'll always find a loser criticizing your material. I always ignore the hot air and continue posting material that proves the falseness of the quran; its contradictions also.
Example 2:
Rabbi Huna also wrote a quote that has become famous amongst muslims. Its found in sura 5.32, which reads "On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people."
The original line from Huna is quite different and the quran left out an important point. As the topic concerns Adam and Eve, Huna specified that the reason one man (Adam) was created one and alone, was to show the world that if someone killed another person, it was as though he killed the entire human race. Its a beautiful idea and we should give Huna the credit. But 'allah' stole the idea, changed it a bit, stamped his name to it, and included it in sura 5.32.

Masihi said:

The original line from Huna is quite different and the quran left out an important point. As the topic concerns Adam and Eve, Huna specified that the reason one man (Adam) was created one and alone, was to show the world that if someone killed another person, it was as though he killed the entire human race. Its a beautiful idea and we should give Huna the credit. But 'allah' stole the idea, changed it a bit, stamped his name to it, and included it in sura 5.32.

Mishnah

• Masihi
• May 25, 2015

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Or maybe Allah gave Huna the idea to begin with?

Example 3:
Jared, I hope you are grabbing these posts. You have my permission to share the pictures that I prepared.
A rabbi Joseph wrote a fairytale version of Solomon's wisdom and encounter with queen of Sheba, related in 1 Kings 4. Rabbi Joseph added a bird that could speak with Solomon. He added genies (quranic Jinn). He added castles of glass. This fairytale ended up on the quran, sura 27.16-44, and again 'allah' stamped his name in the story, and wants muslims to believe its historical. bahahaha

Here is a snip from the book, targum of esther, where the original story is found.

I have much more material; if interested, I can post it somewhere.

It is perfectly true that many Qur’anic stories and sayings appear elsewhere only in the Talmud and the Midrashim and not in the Bible at all. Why would this be a problem? It is only a problem for those who believe that these extra-biblical traditions of Judaism are wholly false (little more that fairy tales) and of no value whatsoever to the believer; or that the Exalted cannot draw upon parable and folk lore, from whatever source, in order to convey His message.

It is not a problem for those who accept that these traditions contain truths that are equally sacred, inspired and authoritative as those contained within the Bible itself. It is not a problem for those who accept that the Exalted does indeed use parable and myth to suit His purposes. We humans do the same: We all know that young George Washington never did chop down that cherry tree; never did say ‘I cannot tell a lie’; and yet parents still tell this story to their children as a lesson in integrity.

The Beloved takes what is known in order to teach what is unknown. May His Name be praised and glorified.

smaneck said:

Its effect on Muslim peoples and their resentment towards it, remains the same. Islamist movements are simply their way of expressing their discontent.

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...However, the only death toll that exceeds that of the terrorist attacks is the death toll of Muslim on Muslim killings.

I don't think imperialism would explain that one.

smaneck said:

Mindanao was originally two independent sultanates and was forcibly jointed to the Spanish Philippines. They attempted to reassert their independence when the US took control of the islands after the Spanish-American War during which I believe some 100,000 Moros were killed.

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Ok, so just to make sure I'm understanding your on this one, the justification for their attacks on non-US people in the Philippines is this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine–American_War

If we rationalized all violent attacks from one party against another, based on previous wrongs that occurred as far back as 1890's, this world would be a very violent place.

If a French person strapped a bomb to themselves and blew up a German government building in present day, and used the excuse that it was disgruntlement from the German Occupation of France during WW2, would you be using this same sort of logic to justify that behavior?

Also, to put things in perspective, Japan occupied the Philippines more recently then we did...in fact, 40 years after we did. And the Japanese Occupation resulted in 4-5x the deaths that ours did. (especially considering that most of the deaths that happened during our occupation were from starvation and not from our bullets). It was the allied forces who went in and ended the brutal Japanese Occupation. (and Immediately afterwards signed the Act giving the Philippines full Autonomy). Of course, during this, the Moros decided just to start shooting at everyone. (Us, Japanese, other Filipinos). The casualty count was particularly high due to the fact that the Japanese and Moros refused to abide by rules of war that state that you don't shoot at Medics.

With all that being considered...shouldn't their anger be directed at either their initial occupiers (Spain), or the people who occupied them after we left and then killed almost a million people (Japan)?

In looking at the 3 foreign powers that were involved, US was neither the first, nor the worst...so why is it our role in the conflict that's getting the blame for radical behavior in present day?

miniverchivi said:

...However, the only death toll that exceeds that of the terrorist attacks is the death toll of Muslim on Muslim killings.

I don't think imperialism would explain that one.

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Yeah, it does. Because when the imperialists leave political chaos reigns. Iraq is a good example. We destroyed the government of Iraq and replaced with Shi'ite rule, which while representing the majority, did nothing to protect the rights of Sunnis and Kurds. This made the Sunnis more vulnerable extremism and ISIL was the result.

miniverchivi said:

If a French person strapped a bomb to themselves and blew up a German government building in present day, and used the excuse that it was disgruntlement from the German Occupation of France during WW2, would you be using this same sort of logic to justify that behavior?

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Your missing the point. German occupation was relatively short-lived and did not result in a destruction of the culture. The same cannot be said for Western colonialism.

US was neither the first, nor the worst...so why is it our role in the conflict that's getting the blame for radical behavior in present day?

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I explained Iraq above.

smaneck said:

I explained Iraq above.

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Yes, you explained Iraq above, but that doesn't correlate to the Philippines example.

Iraq is an example where we went in and overthrew an existing regime and replaced it with one of our choosing.

In the Philippines, the takeover had already happened at the hands of Spain. We came in after the fact.

And the fact still remains, the scenario you describe (about losing their culture) has happened all over the world over the last couple thousand years. Why does it only seem to be the Muslim factions acting out in this sort of manner as retaliation for events from over a hundred years prior?

I know you're desperately trying to defend an ideology here, and I can respect that...but at a certain point, and objective look at the numbers must be acknowledged. I'm not trying to bash Islam, I promise...I'm simply pointing out issues within the Islamic doctrine and the Islamic communities that simply don't exist in other religions at the same level or degree.

miniverchivi said:

And the fact still remains, the scenario you describe (about losing their culture) has happened all over the world over the last couple thousand years. Why does it only seem to be the Muslim factions acting out in this sort of manner as retaliation for events from over a hundred years prior?

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There is just as much chaos in Africa whether Muslims make up a significant portion of the population or not.

This is the sura that has been misrepresented in a recent post. It is called ‘The Opening’; and is very important in Islamic worship, being an obligatory part of the daily prayer, repeated several times during the day:

‘In the name of God, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy! Praise belongs to God, Lord of the Worlds, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy, Master of the Day of Judgement. It is You we worship; it is You we ask for help. Guide us to the straight path: the path of those You have blessed, those who incur no anger and who have not gone astray.’

(Al-Fatiha).

The original Arabic makes no reference to Jews or Christians in the way that has been done in this thread.