Is the Church Raptured in Revelation 4

Postvieww · May 24, 2015

Straightshot said:
The Lord's angelic Cherubs do not need to be redeemed, only humans do

So I will suggest to you that the Cherubs do not sing the song .... however, they do worship the Lord

It is the redeemed humans who sing

And this a bit mysterious to us, but know that the Lord is omnipresent in His universe and is every where at the same time and all of the time .... and He can be both God and human at the same time

He is God and can be His Son at the same time [John 14:8-9]

An awesome being, and there is none like Him

Even His 7 fold holy spirit is connected and omnipresent [Revelation 5:6]

Nothing is impossible for this Creator and maintainer of all things

“The Lord's angelic Cherubs do not need to be redeemed, only humans do”

Agreed my point exactly. It sounds like you presume the 24 are human, I contend they are not. This is why I believe the KJV in this case is not the correct translation. Rev 5:8 KJV clearly states both the 24 elders and the 4 beasts fell down before the Lamb.

So I will suggest to you that the Cherubs do not sing the song .... however, they do worship the Lord

We will just have to agree to disagree here. I see no justification in the text for claiming the 4 beasts do not sing the song. Verse 9 says “ And they sung a new song”. They refers back to verse 8 which has the 24 and the 4 together in every respect. There is no sound scriptural reason to separate them in verse 9. The need to make the 24 human has no basis and you clearly stated the 4 are not human.

It is the redeemed humans who sing

Here you ignore the possibility that the other translations might be the correct one, because they do not create the dilemma the KJV has produced by stating both the 24 and the 4 are redeemed by His blood.

And this a bit mysterious to us, but know that the Lord is omnipresent in His universe and is every where at the same time and all of the time .... and He can be both God and human at the same time

I agree with this statement.

He is God and can be His Son at the same time [John 14:8-9]

Also agree with this statement, but does not address the narrative in Rev 4 & 5. Rev 4:8-9 the 4 worshipped saying Holy Holy Holy, the 4 also gave thanks. The 24 fell down before him that sat on the throne (God the father) cast their crowns and praised Him for creating all things, Note what they did not say is praise or thanks for redeeming them by his blood. Rev 5:1 God (the Father) on the throne with the book. Rev 5:2-4 angel proclaims no man in heaven or earth worthy to open it, while God (the Father) was still holding it. Verse 5 one of the elders proclaimed “the Lion of the tribe of Juda” had prevailed, God (the Son). Verse 6 the first mention of Christ in this narrative. If he had been in the midst of the throne, the beast, and the elders in verses 1-4 someone would have noticed. In their midst now stood a Lamb, God (the Son)as it had been slain. It is this this description that leads me to concluded this shows God (the Son’s) arrival after His resurrection. We can quibble about explaining the trinity, but this scene is clear we have a depiction of God the Father and God the Son, both in this passage. I see no scriptural evidence that the 24 elders where human and as I have pointed out much to suggest that is not the case.

An awesome being, and there is none like Him

Agree totally. Amen

Even His 7 fold holy spirit is connected and omnipresent [Revelation 5:6]

Agree

Nothing is impossible for this Creator and maintainer of all things

Agree. But His word is what it is and can’t be changed to fit a particular narrative.

Thanks for engaging in this discussion.

bibletruth469 · May 24, 2015

Riberra said:
Based on what are you presuming a pre-tribulation rapture ?Is it because that you believe that the 24 elders represent the church that is in heaven ?Where do you think that the souls of the millions of believers in Jesus have gone after their death since 2,000 years ? There is actually a great multitude of souls of those who died in Christ (believers )who are actually in Heaven and their numbers is growing every day.

Revelation 7:9-11
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

The dead and alive, believers in Christ, will be raptured and they will receive glorified bodies and they will be given rewards and crowns. This group of people will encompass all the believers since Christ's resurrection. Therefore the 24 elders represent people, not angels . no where in the scripture does the word elder represent angels. I looked at the Greek word 'presbuterion' and it means men. They are kings and priests. They are also ' purchased' from God and are redeemed as shown in rev 5:9-10.

The number 24 in revelation is a representative of earthly conditions. Example,There were 24 orders of the priesthood in the laws of moses.

You mentioned ' the great multitude'. These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation and therefore are the tribulation saints. This can not be the same group as the elders. Look at 7:13-17, one of the elders asked ' Who are these people?' Answer: they are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation.

Straightshot · May 24, 2015

"You mentioned ' the great multitude'. These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation and therefore are the tribulation saints. This can not be the same group as the elders. Look at 7:13-17, one of the elders asked ' Who are these people?' Answer: they are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation"

The 24 and the GTM are all there together before the tribultion starts on the earth, and John sees them all .... together as he speaks with one of 24

The GTM is kept "away from" [EK] [check Strong's BC] .... or "out of" if one is out of something one is not in it

There will be those who will turn to the Lord during the tribulation period upon the earth .... two groups

The martyrs who will have to wait until the end of the period for resurrection [Revelation 6:9-11].... and those who survive the tribulation of those days

The survivors will be gathered by the Lord just after [as mortals] and separated .... those found believing will enter and populate His millennial kingdom upon the earth of Israel [Matthew 24:29-31], of the Gentiles [Matthew 25:31-46] .... those of the Gentiles found favoring Israel during the tribulation [the Lord's "brethren".... His kin] will enter .... those who did not favor Israel [all unbelievers] will be rejected

Postvieww · May 24, 2015

bibletruth469 said:
The dead and alive, believers in Christ, will be raptured and they will receive glorified bodies and they will be given rewards and crowns. This group of people will encompass all the believers since Christ's resurrection. Therefore the 24 elders represent people, not angels . no where in the scripture does the word elder represent angels. I looked at the Greek word 'presbuterion' and it means men. They are kings and priests. They are also ' purchased' from God and are redeemed as shown in rev 5:9-10.

The number 24 in revelation is a representative of earthly conditions. Example,There were 24 orders of the priesthood in the laws of moses.

You mentioned ' the great multitude'. These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation and therefore are the tribulation saints. This can not be the same group as the elders. Look at 7:13-17, one of the elders asked ' Who are these people?' Answer: they are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation.

According to Strong's word 4245 presbuteros, the word used for elder in Revelation, the definition can be older, a senior, MEMBER OF THE CELESTIAL COUNCIL, presbyter, elder , old.
I see no scriptural way to get a raptured church into heaven in Rev chapter 4. Please show us a scripture that shows that.

bibletruth469 · May 24, 2015

Postvieww said:
According to Strong's word 4245 presbuteros, the word used for elder in Revelation, the definition can be older, a senior, MEMBER OF THE CELESTIAL COUNCIL, presbyter, elder , old.
I see no scriptural way to get a raptured church into heaven in Rev chapter 4. Please show us a scripture that show that.

I get that. I was just showing that the word elder means men, not angels.

There are other interpretations , depending on which stance a person believes. A literal interpretation of scripture will be a lot different than allegorical . Revelation is symbolic, yes, but each symbol can be interpreted to mean something literal. We can find this throughout the entire scripture. To me, this is the most accurate way to interpret the scripture. Otherwise, one could make mean whatever they want.

Therefore, because of these reasons, I personally believe that the raptured church is in the throne room, dressed in white and wearing crowns in chapter 4. We are not told exactly when( timing) in revelation that the rapture takes place, but when the church is in heaven in chapter 4, it must have happened before that point. One must also have the view that revelation's format is chronological.

Riberra · May 24, 2015

bibletruth469 said:
The dead and alive, believers in Christ, will be raptured and they will receive glorified bodies and they will be given rewards and crowns. This group of people will encompass all the believers since Christ's resurrection.

We will be raptured in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air yes,but at the last trump... the trump of God as mentioned in (Thess... Corinthians ).... No trump have sounded in Revelation 4 or Rev 5 or Rev 6 or even Rev 7.

Bibletruth469 said:
Therefore the 24 elders represent people, not angels . no where in the scripture does the word elder represent angels. I looked at the Greek word 'presbuterion' and it means men. They are kings and priests. They are also ' purchased' from God and are redeemed as shown in rev 5:9-10.

The number 24 in revelation is a representative of earthly conditions. Example,There were 24 orders of the priesthood in the laws of moses.

I am in agreement with you that the 24 elders represent people at least their spirit (souls) in Heaven. "Possibly" the old testament patriarchs and the 12 apostles ...
Hebrews 12:23 give a hint:

Hebrews 12
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 12 KJV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+12&version=KJV

Job8 · May 24, 2015

prewrath said:
If John is a picture of the church being raptured in Revelation 4; then who is the multitude in chapter 19 coming back with Christ?

The prophecy of Revelation does not address the Rapture. John going to Heaven is just that, and it is not permanent. John returned from Heaven to write this book and continue to live on earth.

What you see in chapter 19 is "the Revelation" of Christ coming with His saints to judge the world in righteousness. Note what Jude says: And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

random person · May 24, 2015

Job8 said:
The prophecy of Revelation does not address the Rapture. John going to Heaven is just that, and it is not permanent. John returned from Heaven to write this book and continue to live on earth.

What you see in chapter 19 is "the Revelation" of Christ coming with His saints to judge the world in righteousness. Note what Jude says: And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Excellent point! :oldthumbsup:

bibletruth469 · May 24, 2015

Riberra said:
We will be raptured in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air yes,but at the last trump... the trump of God as mentioned in (Thess... Corinthians ).... No trump have sounded in Revelation 4 or Rev 5 or Rev 6 or even Rev 7.

I am in agreement with you that the 24 elders represent people at least their spirit (souls) in Heaven. "Possibly" the old testament patriarchs and the 12 apostles ...
Hebrews 12:23 give a hint:

Hebrews 12
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 12 KJV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+12&version=KJV

The seventh trumpet, or the last one in revelation , is about the judgement of unbelievers. It is not the same as the last trumpet in 1 cor 15:51-52. This one occurs for believers at the rapture. There are many trumpets that are sounded throughout scripture. For example,There will be trumpets sounded at the feast of tabernacles during the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Note: just because a trumpet is not mentioned in a verse or passage of scripture doesn't prove anything.

Job8 · May 24, 2015

bibletruth469 said:
The seventh trumpet, or the last one in revelation , is about the judgement of unbelievers. It is not the same as the last trumpet in 1 cor 15:51-52. This one occurs for believers at the rapture

This is very true, yet Christians stumble over this point all the time. Those seven trumpets are meant to pour out God WRATH on the ungodly. "The last trump" or "the trump of God" is a trumpet sound of GRACE, since the Rapture/Resurrection is the ultimate stage in the perfection (salvation) of the saints. And since the Church is not "appointed to wrath", believers are taken out of this world before God pours out His wrath.

Straightshot · May 24, 2015

"We will be raptured in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air yes,but at the last trump"

My comment

There are two trumpet soundings for the Lord's true ecclesia

.... and neither are the following: the 7 judgment trumpets of Revelation or the great trumpet sounding after the days of the tribulation

The 7 judgment trumpet soundings are associated with the Lord's judgments of the tribulation with no literal mention of any resurrections in any context of the same

And the great trumpet sounding after the tribulation is for the surviving mortals of Israel [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Matthew 24:29-31] .... this is not a resurrection, but a gathering of Israel to enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth

The first trumpet for the Lord's ecclesia is found here [Revelation 1:10] ....this is the Lord Himself with His first formal message to the church, and then what was to come after [Romans 11:25; Revelation 4:1] .... the tribulation period is next .... when all of the Gentiles have been added to the church, the last trumpet for the church will sound [1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Revelation 18:4]

The evidence of the immortals of the the Lord's ecclesia with Him during the tribulation period [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 [those on "thrones" symbol of the Lord's government]]

Matthew Twentyfour · May 24, 2015

bibletruth469 said:
Note: just because a trumpet is not mentioned in a verse or passage of scripture doesn't prove anything.

This is very accurate. The bible cannot fit all information. The rest is given through the holy spirit.

John 21:25 Jesus also did many other things. If they were all written down, I suppose the whole world could not contain the books that would be written.

Riberra · May 24, 2015

bibletruth469 said:
The seventh trumpet, or the last one in revelation , is about the judgement of unbelievers. It is not the same as the last trumpet in 1 cor 15:51-52.

I agree that the 7 Th trump - the last one in Revelation - is probably not the last trump (the trump of God) mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52...

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is the sister verses of 1 cor 15:51-52... in it we find exactly when the last trump which is the trump of God will sound..unto the coming of the Lord not before the Tribulation.By the way we will not be raptured higher than the clouds,to meet the Lord in the air (Marriage with Jesus) ...just before the Armageddon's battle.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Riberra · May 24, 2015

Straightshot said:
The evidence of the immortals of the the Lord's ecclesia with Him during the tribulation period [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 [those on "thrones" symbol of the Lord's government]]

These are the SOULS of the believers in Jesus since 2,000 years including those who will die during the Tribulation ....None of them have gone to Heaven because they were raptured while they were still alive.

Straightshot · May 25, 2015

"None of them have gone to Heaven because they were raptured while they were still alive."

Your statement here makes no sense at all

Riberra · May 25, 2015

Straightshot said:
"None of them have gone to Heaven because they were raptured while they were still alive."

Your statement here makes no sense at all

Let me rephrase .
I was replying to this:
You wrote:
"The evidence of the immortals of the the Lord's ecclesia with Him during the tribulation period
[Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4]"

Are you saying that the "immortals" of the the Lord's ecclesia with Him were raptured ???

Berean777 · May 25, 2015

Rev 18 is talking about the old covenant saints, if they were new covenant they would not be called prophets or servants but those that have the testimony of the lamb. Since the lamb is not present in all of Rev 18 the Babylon spoken of here is the old Pharisaical religious system that persecuted the prophets and saints of God.

Consider the verse below:

Revelation 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints,
and of all that were slain upon the earth.

And consider the charge that Jesus placed upon them:

Luke 13:34-35
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate:

Rev 19 follows a celebration by the saints who were raised in Matthew 27:52-53 who witnessed the destruction of Babylon the great in 70AD from heaven.

Then in Rev 20 we see when the first beast and the false religious system the harlot that influenced the first beast were destroyed Satan who symbolised the red dragon that persecuted the first century church that was trying to deliver the child into the world (everlasting gospel) was imprisoned in his bottomless Pitt prison.

ThatTrueLight · May 25, 2015

Berean777 said:
Rev 19 follows a celebration by the saints who were raised in Matthew 27:52-53 who witnessed the destruction of Babylon the great in 70AD from heaven.

Then in Rev 20 we see when the first beast and the false religious system the harlot that influenced the first beast were destroyed Satan who symbolised the red dragon that persecuted the first century church that was trying to deliver the child into the world (everlasting gospel) was imprisoned in his bottomless Pitt prison.

Another who is obsessed with AD70.. Dead give away every time.

Berean777 · May 25, 2015

70 AD is an event unprecedented by Jewish standards and according to John how could he NOT cryptically mention it in his Revelation so that he would not make himself the target from all sides of the equation.

John witnessed everything!

Babylon the Great is the harlot that Jesus laid charges on:

Luke 13:34-35
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

So what God do about this persecuting religious power that was once headed by Saint Paul in persecuting the first century church of Christ ?

Matthew 22:1-10
And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

Rev 18 leading into 19 is the parable prophesy that Jesus gave to the Pharisaical religious system that became a desolate harlot as far as God was concerned. The 70AD fall of Babylon the great was celebrated by the old covenant Father's in heaven who had been raised after Christ was raised (Matthew 27:52-53).

Even the Old Covenant Jewish father's who became the 24 elderly heavenly kingly judges celebrated the fall of earthly Jerusalem in 70AD. This should come as a warning to those who want to culminate another insurrection against God's plan by building her up.

The Holy Ghost is the Elijah who came to restore the relationship between the heavenly 24 judgers and the disobedient sons and will continue to do so until they are restored. That will require the fall of mystery Babylon that is being built up and awaiting Lucifer as earthly Messiah. When the insurrection happens again then the Jewish sons will turn against the newly built up Babylon and oppose the earthly messiah that has been prepared for them and the world.

Is the Church Raptured in Revelation 4

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