What's so bad about the Book of Mormon?

ChetSinger · May 21, 2015

smaneck said:
I'll grant you that the Son of Man figure in Daniel is clearly supernatural but I don't see it having anything to do with the physicality of early conceptions of Yahweh.

Perhaps this will help. It's produced by Dr. Michael Heiser, who references Dr. Segal's work. http://www.twopowersinheaven.com/default.html

smaneck said:
...And Jesus was not convicted of blasphemy. If he were they would have stoned him to death. He was crucified on charges of treason for claiming to be the King of the Jews. I do grant you that Jesus was not being humble when he referred to himself as the Son of Man.

I was referring to his trial before the Sanhedrin, not Pilate. Notice their reaction when he claims to the be the cloud-walking Son of Man.

smaneck · May 21, 2015

seekingsolace said:
So can I not label charles manson a cult leader?

Not if they were posting in this forum.

zelosravioli · May 21, 2015

'Unless you are saying that a wrong belief can negate salvation I don't understand how you can say that a belief in the BoM can negate salvation' (Songsmith OP)
And here is Songsmiths answer:
'The Book of Mormon claims to be a divinely inspired record, written by a succession of prophets who inhabited ancient America. It professes to be revealed to the present generation for the salvation of all who will receive it, and for the overthrow and damnation of all nations who reject it. This book must be either true or false... If false, it is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep-laid impositions ever palmed upon the world, calculated to deceive and ruin millions who will sincerely receive it as the word of God, and will suppose themselves securely built upon the rock of truth until they are plunged with their families into hopeless despair. The nature of the message in the Book of Mormon is such, that if true, no one can possibly be saved and reject it; if false, no one can possibly be saved and receive it. (Orson Pratt, 1811-1881, DIVINE AUTHENTICITY OF THE BOOK OF MORMON)

I presented why it was doctrinally correct in my first post here, defending the OP, but the fact that it is a piece of fiction and false, should also be published, per the OP, as Orson said above.

zelosravioli · May 22, 2015

First of all the book 'View of the Hebrews' (which I have a reprint of) written in 1825 by Ethan Smith (not related to Joseph Smith) gives a clear outline of what could have been the inspiration for the BOM. It not only has over a dozen parallels with Josephs book which he printed in 1830, it includes excessive readings from nearly whole chapters from Isaiah just like Ethan's book does. Also another book by Josiah Priest printed around the same time spoke of the same Indian origins that Joseph also made the basis for the BOM. A prominent historian and apologist for the LDS church had also wrote of these similarities:

In his earlier faith-promoting work, A New Witness for God, a three-volume work published in 1909, B. H. Roberts insisted that Joseph Smith did not have access to books from which he could create a "ground plan" for the Book of Mormon. In his secret writings, however, Roberts acknowledged that in A New Witness for God: he "did not take sufficiently into account the work of Josiah Priest... Priest himself, indeed, published a book... The Wonders of Nature and Providence, copyrighted by him June 2nd, 1824, and printed soon afterwards in Rochester, New York, only some twenty miles distant from Palmyra... this book preceded the publication of the Book of Mormon by about six years. At the time I made for my New Witness the survey of the literature on American antiquities, traditions, origins, etc., available to Joseph Smith and his associates, this work of Priest's was unknown to me; as was also the work of Ethan Smith, View of the Hebrews — except by report of it, and as being in my hands but a few minutes.... it is altogether probable that these two books... were either possessed by Joseph Smith or certainly known by him... "Moreover, on subjects widely discussed, and that deal in matters of widespread public interest, there is built up in the course of years, a community of knowledge of such subjects, usually referred to as 'matters of common knowledge'... Such 'common knowledge' existed throughout New England and New York in relation to American Indian origins and cultures: and the prevailing ideas respecting the American Indians throughout the regions named were favorable to the notion that they were of Hebrew origin... And with the existence of such a body of knowledge, or that which was accepted as 'knowledge,' and a person of vivid and constructive imaginative power in contact with it, there is little room for doubt that it might be possible for Joseph Smith to construct a theory of origin for his Book of Mormon in harmony with these prevailing notions; and more especially since this 'common knowledge' is set forth in almost handbook form in the little work of Ethan Smith... It will appear in what is to follow that such 'common knowledge' did exist in New England, that Joseph Smith was in contact with it; that one book, at least, with which he was most likely acquainted, could well have furnished structural outlines for the Book of Mormon; and that Joseph Smith was possessed of such creative imaginative powers as would make it quite within the lines of possibility that the Book of Mormon could have been produced in that way." (Studies of the Book of Mormon, pages 152-54)

"But now to return... to the main theme of this writing — viz., did Ethan Smith's View of the Hebrews furnish structural material for Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon? It has been pointed out in these pages that there are many things in the former book that might well have suggested many major things in the other. Not a few things merely, one or two, or a half dozen, but many; and it is this fact of many things of similarity and the cumulative force of them that makes them so serious a menace to Joseph Smith's story of the Book of Mormon origin... (Studies of the Book of Mormon, pages 235-)

You have to understand, there is not just a few small problems with the BOM, but dozens of huge problems... like the total lack of anything 'Hebrew' in mind throughout the book. The Law the customs, the celebrations, feasts, the sabbaths, the passover, sacrifices, offerings, covenants, alters, there is no hint of any practicing Jews in the BOM, it is as if it was written by a modern day Protestant who knew nothing of Jewish customs...

zelosravioli · May 22, 2015

"The book by Josiah Priest throws new light upon a controversy regarding a quotation from William Shakespeare which is found in the Book of Mormon. Since Shakespeare was not born until 1564, we would not expect the Book of Mormon to quote from his words. Anti-Mormon writers, however, feel that they have identified a quotation from his works. This is a statement made by Lehi almost 600 years before Christ: "...from whence no traveler can return;..." (2 Nephi 1:14) Notice how similar this is to the words of Shakespeare: "...from whose bourn no traveller returns..." (Hamlet, Act 3, Scene 1, as quoted in Commentary on the Book of Mormon, Vol. 1, page 237)

The Mormon apologist Sidney B. Sperry made this statement: "Joseph Smith has been charged by many of his critics as being an impostor...some of them,...claim that he quotes words of Shakespeare in a passage of the Book of Mormon... And, indeed, it would seem a bit strange to learn that Lehi could quote Will Shakespeare about 2140 years before the Bard of Avon was born!... The Mormon people have no objection to sholars finding parallels to Shakespeare... We hold that Joseph Smith translated the Nephite text of the Book of Mormon and that he used the best vocabulary at his command. If such a vocabulary demonstrated a knowledge of works of Shakespeare, so much the better. But we suggest that it would be very difficult to prove that Joseph Smith was familiar with the works of Shakespeare... In fairness to critics, and in anticipation of future discussions of the problem, we wish to call attention to a particular word used in the quotations by both Lehi and Shakespeare.... The word we have in mind is 'traveller,' It stands out like a sore thumb as far as Lehi is concerned... We are led to the conclusion that the only word that Joseph Smith might have put into Lehi's mouth from Shakespeare, assuming he was exposed to the lines from Hamlet, is 'traveller.'" (The Problems of the Book of Mormon, pp. 123, 124, 128 and 129)

The reader will notice that although Dr. Sperry admits that the word "traveller" might have been "put into Lehi's mouth from Shakespeare," he states that it "would be very difficult to prove that Joseph Smith was familiar with the works of Shakespeare;..." Although we have shown that "Shakespeare's works, 10 vols." were sold at the Wayne Bookstore in Joseph Smith's neighborhood (Wayne Sentinel, Jan. 26, 1825), we now have a much better idea of where Joseph Smith might have found these words. In examining Josiah Priest's "The Wonders of Nature and Providence Displayed", we found a story which quotes the words of Shakespeare. In quoting these words, however, they are in the wrong order, and this makes the end of the quotation almost identical to that in the Book of Mormon.
"...from whence no traveler returns." (The Wonders of Nature and Providence Displayed, 1825, page 469)
"...from whence no traveler can return;..." (Book of Mormon, 1830, 2 Nephi 1:14)
The reader will notice how similar the two quotations are. While it is possible that this could be a coincidence, there is additional evidence which seems to show that Joseph Smith used Priest's work in writing the Book of Mormon."

From Jerald and Sandra Tanner's Mormonism : Shadow or Reality?

Ironhold · May 22, 2015

You'll need something better than the Tanners, as their reputation for doctoring citations precedes them.

zelosravioli · May 23, 2015

The tanners are extraordinarily honest. They have proved to both defend the LDS church against false misrepresentations and warned the church of their own deceptions, which the LDS Church has officially noted. That would be underhanded to not point out where, in their 'tons' of research they are what you say. They pretty much only reprint and research Mormon history, they practically invented documentation and empirical evidence.

As far as doctoring history, you really want to start there?

Ironhold · May 23, 2015

zelosravioli said:
The tanners are extraordinarily honest. They have proved to both defend the LDS church against false misrepresentations and warned the church of their own deceptions, which the LDS Church has officially noted. That would be underhanded to not point out where, in their 'tons' of research they are what you say. They pretty much only reprint and research Mormon history, they practically invented documentation and empirical evidence.

As far as doctoring history, you really want to start there?

The Tanners have literally been caught using ellipses (the little "..." you often see) to alter citations in such a fashion as to force a meaning that isn't actually there. They've also been caught wrenching material out of context, also to force a meaning that isn't there.

I myself caught them doing it in the past.

For example, consider this passage from Alma 18:

24 And Ammon began to speak unto him with boldness, and said unto him: Believest thou that there is a God?

25 And he answered, and said unto him: I do not know what that meaneth.

26 And then Ammon said: Believest thou that there is aGreat Spirit?

27 And he said, Yea.

28 And Ammon said: This is God. And Ammon said unto him again: Believest thou that this Great Spirit, who is God, created all things which are in heaven and in the earth?

The Tanners tried to argue that this passage teaches that God is a spirit, and so they use it as "proof" that the Book of Mormon contradicts LDS theology.

What they don't note, however, is this:

5 Now this was the tradition of Lamoni, which he had received from his father, that there was a Great Spirit. Notwithstanding they believed in a Great Spirit, they supposed that whatsoever they did was right; nevertheless, Lamoni began to fear exceedingly, with fear lest he had done wrong in slaying his servants;

The chapter thus says nothing about whether or not God has a body; rather, Ammon is using Lamoni's own theology to teach of God, much as Paul did at Mars Hill.

drstevej · May 23, 2015

You complain about the Tanners, but you are fine with Joseph Smith changing the Bible to suit his fancy.

Hmmmmmm

Ironhold · May 23, 2015

"Divine revelation" vs. "What can we do to sell more books?"

Look at it that way.

A New Dawn · May 23, 2015

Ironhold said:
"Divine revelation" vs. "What can we do to sell more books?"

Look at it that way.

That is only your opinion. Changing something is changing something. Anyone can claim "divine revelation" to promote what you want others to believe.

mmksparbud · May 23, 2015

Downloaded the Book of Mormon and have been reading it---not for long though!!---There I no way I can get through this. I already have questions---such as the language itself. This is supposed to be written by ancient peoples, translated by JS. This doesn't read like any other ancient translations I've seen. I am no expert, just for fun reads excerpts from Egyptian translations--this is what those read like.

EGYPTIAN POETRY AND PROVERBS"In the Beginning, Egyptian legends attested, floodwaters englufed the world. Nothing stirred amid that dark and dismal expanse. Then, miraculously, a lotus blossom surfaced and opened its petals to give birth to the Sun. Rising from the blossom like a golden bird, the Sun subdued the waters and coaxed life from the emerging land. Ever after, when the Nile receded and the growing season began, its people gave thanks to the Sun god Re and to his Earthly counterpart, the Pharaoh, who claimed divine powers and kept the country fruitful"
"MAN FEARS TIME BUT TIME FEARS THE PYRAMIDS" "I wish I were your mirror, so that you always looked at me. I wish I were your garment so that you would always wear me. I wish I were the water that washes your body. I wish I were the unguent, O woman, that I could annoint you. And the band around your breasts, and the beads around your neck. I wish I were your sandal that embraces your foot and that you would step on me!" "LITTLE IS BETTER THAN NOTHING." "The Sight of her makes me well! When she opens her eyes, my body is young; her speaking makes me strong; embracing her expels my malady." "THE TEETH ARE SMILING, BUT IS THE HEART" "Pour water on thyself: thus shalt thou be a Fountain to the Universe. Find thou thyself in every Star. Achieve thou every possibility." "If I embrace her and her arms are open, I am like a man in the land of perfumes. If I kiss her and her lips are open, I am drunk even without beer." "THERE IS NO DARKNESS LIKE IGNORANCE" Hymn To The Aten"Splendid you rise in heaven's lightland, O living Aten, creator of life! When you have dawned in eastern lightland, you fill every land with your beauty, You are beautious, great, radiant, High over every land: Your rays embrace the lands To the limits of all that you made... All eyes are on your beauty until you set, All labor ceases when you rest in the west: When you rise you stir everyone for the King, Every leg is on the move since you founded the earth. You rouse them for your son who came from your body, The King who lives by Maat, the Lord of the Two Lands"

BOM just doesn't "read" right. I'm not sure how to state that, but it reads like the King James version of the bible, not like a translation of a middle eastern hieroglyphics. I tried to not prejudge it--just read it for what it is, but I really don't know if I can hack getting through this thing. There is this from Wiki that also bothers me.

Early life of Joseph Smith
Joseph Smith had little formal schooling, but may have attended school briefly in Palmyra and received instruction in his home.[13] Young Joseph worked on his family farm and perhaps took an occasional odd job or worked for nearby farmers.[14] His mother described him as "much less inclined to the perusal of books than any of the rest of the children, but far more given to meditation and deep study." Lucy Smith also noted that though he never read through the Bible until he was at least eighteen, he was imaginative and could regale the family with "the most amusing recitals" of the life and religion of ancient Native Americans "with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them."[15] Smith was variously described as "remarkably quiet,"[16] "taciturn," "proverbially good-natured," and "never known to laugh."[17] One acquaintance said Smith had "a jovial, easy, don't-care way about him," and he had an aptitude for debating moral and political issues in a local junior debating club.[18] Biographer Fawn Brodie wrote, "He was a gregarious, cheerful, imaginative youth, born to leadership, but hampered by meager education and grinding poverty."[19]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Joseph_Smith#Childhood

fatboys · May 24, 2015

mmksparbud said:
Downloaded the Book of Mormon and have been reading it---not for long though!!---There I no way I can get through this. I already have questions---such as the language itself. This is supposed to be written by ancient peoples, translated by JS. This doesn't read like any other ancient translations I've seen. I am no expert, just for fun reads excerpts from Egyptian translations--this is what those read like.[quote/]
Not to be rude but unless you know a language a translation and true intent of what the author is trying to get across can be different from translator to translator. God gave Joseph Smith the Urim and thummin to translate and it worked through his knowledge and understand. Thus is the reason that it is translated in the old English language. To Joseph who had little exposure to any other books other than the bible he translated it in what his understand was a language he was familiar with from the bible. In his mind this is what scriptures should read.

EGYPTIAN POETRY AND PROVERBS

Click to expand...

"In the Beginning, Egyptian legends attested, floodwaters englufed the world. Nothing stirred amid that dark and dismal expanse. Then, miraculously, a lotus blossom surfaced and opened its petals to give birth to the Sun. Rising from the blossom like a golden bird, the Sun subdued the waters and coaxed life from the emerging land. Ever after, when the Nile receded and the growing season began, its people gave thanks to the Sun god Re and to his Earthly counterpart, the Pharaoh, who claimed divine powers and kept the country fruitful"
"MAN FEARS TIME BUT TIME FEARS THE PYRAMIDS" "I wish I were your mirror, so that you always looked at me. I wish I were your garment so that you would always wear me. I wish I were the water that washes your body. I wish I were the unguent, O woman, that I could annoint you. And the band around your breasts, and the beads around your neck. I wish I were your sandal that embraces your foot and that you would step on me!" "LITTLE IS BETTER THAN NOTHING." "The Sight of her makes me well! When she opens her eyes, my body is young; her speaking makes me strong; embracing her expels my malady." "THE TEETH ARE SMILING, BUT IS THE HEART" "Pour water on thyself: thus shalt thou be a Fountain to the Universe. Find thou thyself in every Star. Achieve thou every possibility." "If I embrace her and her arms are open, I am like a man in the land of perfumes. If I kiss her and her lips are open, I am drunk even without beer." "THERE IS NO DARKNESS LIKE IGNORANCE" Hymn To The Aten"Splendid you rise in heaven's lightland, O living Aten, creator of life! When you have dawned in eastern lightland, you fill every land with your beauty, You are beautious, great, radiant, High over every land: Your rays embrace the lands To the limits of all that you made... All eyes are on your beauty until you set, All labor ceases when you rest in the west: When you rise you stir everyone for the King, Every leg is on the move since you founded the earth. You rouse them for your son who came from your body, The King who lives by Maat, the Lord of the Two Lands"

BOM just doesn't "read" right. I'm not sure how to state that, but it reads like the King James version of the bible, not like a translation of a middle eastern hieroglyphics. I tried to not prejudge it--just read it for what it is, but I really don't know if I can hack getting through this thing. There is this from Wiki that also bothers me.

Early life of Joseph Smith
Joseph Smith had little formal schooling, but may have attended school briefly in Palmyra and received instruction in his home.[13] Young Joseph worked on his family farm and perhaps took an occasional odd job or worked for nearby farmers.[14] His mother described him as "much less inclined to the perusal of books than any of the rest of the children, but far more given to meditation and deep study." Lucy Smith also noted that though he never read through the Bible until he was at least eighteen, he was imaginative and could regale the family with "the most amusing recitals" of the life and religion of ancient Native Americans "with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them."[15] Smith was variously described as "remarkably quiet,"[16] "taciturn," "proverbially good-natured," and "never known to laugh."[17] One acquaintance said Smith had "a jovial, easy, don't-care way about him," and he had an aptitude for debating moral and political issues in a local junior debating club.[18] Biographer Fawn Brodie wrote, "He was a gregarious, cheerful, imaginative youth, born to leadership, but hampered by meager education and grinding poverty."[19]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Joseph_Smith#Childhood

Click to expand...

He could have had more education but it is all speculation or theroies.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

mmksparbud · May 24, 2015

The article about Smith was interesting, not about his lack of education, but the statement made by his mother about the "amusing recitals" he made up about the American Indians life and religion--with such ease as though he had been there with them. This was long before his encounter with the angel and the plates. And it seems that he had been practicing this whole story for quite some time. That bothers me greatly. This statement, more than any other, makes me question the whole story. This man, from childhood, had a very lively imagination and made up stories with great detail and seeming reality which he then poured into this book. That is what is coming across. This is his proud mama bragging about her young sons made up stories.

smaneck · May 24, 2015

mmksparbud said:
The article about Smith was interesting, not about his lack of education, but the statement made by his mother about the "amusing recitals" he made up about the American Indians life and religion--with such ease as though he had been there with them. This was long before his encounter with the angel and the plates. And it seems that he had been practicing this whole story for quite some time. That bothers me greatly.

Did it occur to you that this is the very reason that story is being told?

mmksparbud · May 24, 2015

smaneck said:
Did it occur to you that this is the very reason that story is being told?

This is not someone with an axe to grind--just one proud mama bragging about her kid---it did not occur her what the implications were. I really have not heard anyone talk about this statement--just saw it once, but even I didn't pay that much attention to it till just last night, and now it is flashing like a neon light. Obviously--you are dismissing it---how come??

smaneck · May 24, 2015

mmksparbud said:
This is not someone with an axe to grind--just one proud mama bragging about her kid---it did not occur her what the implications were. I really have not heard anyone talk about this statement--just saw it once, but even I didn't pay that much attention to it till just last night, and now it is flashing like a neon light. Obviously--you are dismissing it---how come??

How sure are you that she actually said this?

mmksparbud · May 24, 2015

smaneck said:
How sure are you that she actually said this?

And how sure are you she didn't??

smaneck · May 24, 2015

mmksparbud said:
And how sure are you she didn't??

I'm not, but if I was as intent to discover the truth of the matter as you present yourself to be, I would check out the validity of the source before I made any conclusions about Joseph Smith based on it.

mmksparbud · May 24, 2015

Been looking, nobody has discredited it yet--that I can find--and that statement has been around a long time now.

What's so bad about the Book of Mormon?

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