Mary's virginity

Lulav said:

You are something else. You were the one who brought up the geberah.

You challenged me, I answered you, don't make it like I am going off on tangents. You wanted to know what I was going to do with that, I answered that King David never had a Queen Mother sit on the throne, and Yeshua is to sit on Davids throne, not Solomon's. So what are you going to do with that? Come up with something on the topic without casting aspersions at me.

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You really aren't getting this. Forget it. Too weird.

David's throne is now occupied by the Messiah. Not by David. Every person, including David and all of his successors had mothers. In Jewish royal families, they were called "Gebirah". In English, that's "Queen Mother". They weren't necessarily advisers nor were they necessarily used as "go-betweens" (which apparently you have a problem with- awfully patriarchal of you I might add) So, assuming that the Messiah is human (you still believe that, don't you? Or is that up for grabs this week too?) and had a human mother, that would make humble Mary the Queen Mother to the King Messiah. What are you going to do with that? You either a) keep arguing as if that changes the facts, b) keep in Jewish thought and say "ok, fine by me" or c) continue to dodge the fact and hate on the RCs for believing the simple fact.

You see, you just come across as hating the Catholics. You appear as if don't want to accept Bible truths because you are afraid you might end up with something in common with them. To me, that's weird. I can agree with the Bible and not draw the conclusion that Mary is some kind of intercessor or adviser to God. You can't because you will have to admit that the "dumb Christians" might have actually got something more Jewish than your anti-Catholic teachers have. Scary, huh?

Real simple. No need to muddy this any further.

danny ski said:

I am well aware of what some Hasidim practice and the (several) explanations for such activity. The bottom line is, prayer to the departed is prohibited in the Torah and by Maimonides in his Principles. What some Hasidim practice regarding the departed Tzadikim comes nowhere near to the RC's practice in the Marian cult. It's not a defense to point to one wrong activity to justify another. The worship of Mary is a mainstream of the Roman Catholicism. I don't understand how anybody can possibly deny it when it's right there in the open for all to see.

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OK simple- I'm showing that the RCs have a continuity with some sects of Judaism, that's all. But I would also add that Hasidic sects who ask advice of the departed are going way beyond anything I've seen in RCism. And yeah, I've tried it in the past.

Norbert L said:

Sounds like mixed emotions. I think most of us here at one time or another have dipped our hands into a mixed bowl of nuts and eaten them.

Now when it comes to being mixed up about some teachings about Mary the mother of Jesus. The RCC teaches in its' CCC this: 500 Against this doctrine the objection is sometimes raised that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus. The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, "brothers of Jesus", are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ, whom St. Matthew significantly calls "the other Mary". They are close relations of Jesus, according to an Old Testament expression.

In the Gospel of John 19:25-27, he identifies four women, three of whom are named Mary at the crucifixion. His mother Mary and her unnamed sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. The Gospel of Matthew 27:56 only specifically references three women (among the many who were there), two named Mary and an unnamed mother of Zebedee’s sons.

How should anyone make definitive heads or tails conclusions out of that? Who really is this "other Mary" in verse 61? Is the progression of context in Matthew referring to the mother of James and Joseph as the other Mary? Why isn't Matthew explicitly mentioning Jesus' mother?

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A sane post.

Lulav said:

AhhBut can I first slap CM and then hug him?

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Finally....all I needed was that hug! Don't mind the slap either. A reminder that I am alive.

ContraMundum said:

OK simple- I'm showing that the RCs have a continuity with some sects of Judaism, that's all. But I would also add that Hasidic sects who ask advice of the departed are going way beyond anything I've seen in RCism. And yeah, I've tried it in the past.

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I remember way back when I was attending Chabad, I sent an email to someone who took it and placed it on the Rebbe's grave.

danny ski said:

The worship of Mary is a mainstream of the Roman Catholicism.

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Do you understand the difference that I've tried to communicate between Latria (for God alone), Dulia (for the saints) and Hyperdulia (for Mary)???

ContraMundum said:

OK simple- I'm showing that the RCs have a continuity with some sects of Judaism, that's all. But I would also add that Hasidic sects who ask advice of the departed are going way beyond anything I've seen in RCism. And yeah, I've tried it in the past.

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It does not show anything. The moment a Jew turns his prayers away from Gd, he breaks the halakha. Period. Prayers TO departed is not mainline Judaism not even among Hasisdim. Those who do practice it violate the Torah. The practice of praying to the departed is standard among majority of Christians. You can defend it, but pointing out the fringes of Judaism that engage in the practice is not a good defense. Wrong is wrong.

danny ski said:

It does not show anything. The moment a Jew turns his prayers away from Gd, he breaks the halakha. Period. Prayers TO departed is not mainline Judaism not even among Hasisdim. Those who do practice it violate the Torah. The practice of praying to the departed is standard among majority of Christians. You can defend it, but pointing out the fringes of Judaism that engage in the practice is not a good defense. Wrong is wrong.

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What Contra is trying to say is that Catholics only ask the saints for their prayers, while Chabadnicks ask the Tzadikim for ADVICE -- that goes way further than what Catholics do.

If you say it's wrong when Jews do that, then fine, you are being consistant at least. But that doesn't negate Contra's point.

danny ski said:

It does not show anything. The moment a Jew turns his prayers away from Gd, he breaks the halakha. Period. Prayers TO departed is not mainline Judaism not even among Hasisdim. Those who do practice it violate the Torah. The practice of praying to the departed is standard among majority of Christians. You can defend it, but pointing out the fringes of Judaism that engage in the practice is not a good defense. Wrong is wrong.

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I've never heard of them carrying statutes through the streets, nor lighting incense to them while they pray, is this done as well?

Open Heart said:

What Contra is trying to say is that Catholics only ask the saints for their prayers, while Chabadnicks ask the Tzadikim for ADVICE -- that goes way further than what Catholics do.

If you say it's wrong when Jews do that, then fine, you are being consistant at least. But that doesn't negate Contra's point.

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It's common to ask for healing in the Marian Sanctuaries, for example. The "miracle" paintings or figures are said to have such powers. Why do you think Popes go around crowning these things? And you're saying Chabadnicks go beyond that? What SOME Hasidim practice is simply wrong enough by itself, but they don't even come close to RC or Eastern Orthodox practices. Do visit a Marian Sanctuary at Yasna Gora in Poland, for example. An eye opening experience. BTW, this is a misdirection from the topic of this thread. Something I once read in the Christian Bible about noticing a sliver and ignoring a tree trunk(or something like that).

danny ski said:

It's common to ask for healing in the Marian Sanctuaries, for example.

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Yes, this is very common. But it's not Mary who does the healing; it's God. What we are really doing is asking Mary to pray on our behalf that God will heal us. Our exact words may fudge on that a bit, and in some areas of the world where Catholicism is more cultural than orthodox, catholics might slip over the edge and actually ask Mary for healing. But for those of us that stay true to the teaching of the Magisterium, we understand that we can only ask for her prayers.

This is not true for Chabadnicks, who believe that the Tzadikim can talk BACK and give them advice.

Lulav said:

I've never heard of them carrying statutes through the streets, nor lighting incense to them while they pray, is this done as well?

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To pray to a dead human or an image or anything other than Gd is to violate the basic commandment. It's wrong and it's wrong to defend it.

Open Heart said:

Yes, this is very common. But it's not Mary who does the healing; it's God. What we are really doing is asking Mary to pray on our behalf that God will heal us. Our exact words may fudge on that a bit, and in some areas of the world where Catholicism is more cultural than orthodox, catholics might slip over the edge and actually ask Mary for healing. But for those of us that stay true to the teaching of the Magisterium, we understand that we can only ask for her prayers.

This is not true for Chabadnicks, who believe that the Tzadikim can talk BACK and give them advice.

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And yet, they thank Mary and not Gd for the healing. If that's fudging then whatever.

danny ski said:

And yet, they thank Mary and not Gd for the healing. If that's fudging then whatever.

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They thank both. Mary for her intercession, and God for the healing. Any catholic who does differently is out of touch with Church teaching.

danny ski said:

It does not show anything. The moment a Jew turns his prayers away from Gd, he breaks the halakha. Period. Prayers TO departed is not mainline Judaism not even among Hasisdim. Those who do practice it violate the Torah. The practice of praying to the departed is standard among majority of Christians. You can defend it, but pointing out the fringes of Judaism that engage in the practice is not a good defense. Wrong is wrong.

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No offence Danny but you're in this way over your head, and even your comment about Christianity is disputable. OH is correct. And asking departed Tzadikkim for help goes way back. Ask your local chacham.

BTW- are you a mitnagim?

Lulav said:

The Aveinu in Hebrew was posted in answer to CM #2, about Messianics not saying it. We do, but in Hebrew. But not over and over again.

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I see it in the MJ siddurs I have. But I've never it prayed in the MJ congregation in my city.

I didn't realize you were in an MJ congregation. Good to see it being used.

I did not paraphrase what Yeshua said, I quoted directly, apparently he says it is not to be done, nor repeatedly. And he says why, because the Father already knows what we need. So to say anything over and over is really to disrespect His Omniscience power. That's what is says to me.

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OK. An opinion.

Open Heart said:

They thank both. Mary for her intercession, and God for the healing. Any catholic who does differently is out of touch with Church teaching.

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Funny isn't it. People have no problem asking another person (who will be a sinner by default) to pray for them, nor do they have a problem thanking people for their intercession....until it comes to people who are the truly righteous....the departed in Heaven (who I believe do pray for us, but with some qualifications).

Then again...there's a whole bunch of questions that follow from that. Do they hear us? Are we to ask only the living to pray for us so that they can fulfill a mitzvah...etc etc etc.

Lulav said:

I've never heard of them carrying statutes through the streets, nor lighting incense to them while they pray, is this done as well?

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Good point. Jews parade Torah scrolls through the streets and even kiss them on many occasions, kiss both tefillin and tallis, brandish plants and move them in various ritual ways (you are obviously going to understand that! ) kiss and reverently touch mezuzahs, light candles for yahrzeits and to welcome shabbos, have precise rituals for washing hands, toivelling and davening etc etc etc. A lot more extra-Biblical baggage than RCism.

I realize that most Jews consider these things non-essential, minhags etc. But you try to buck or change just one of those rites as a kid and see what happens! You can get away with it as an adult, maybe.

ContraMundum said:

No offence Danny but you're in this way over your head, and even your comment about Christianity is disputable. OH is correct. And asking departed Tzadikkim for help goes way back. Ask your local chacham.

BTW- are you a mitnagim?

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Yeah, you right. Asking the departed Tzadikim goes way back. All the way to XIX century. I am way over my head among the Protestants, I find MJs incomprehensible, but among the RCs I feel right at home-having spent my youth in a deeply Roman Catholic country and a good portion of my school years in the Catholic system. You can say, I got my ABCs from the priests and nuns. The genius of Roman Catholicism is that it is very flexible. I asked about the Marian cult. The answer was always the same. If it brings and keeps people in the Church, what difference does it make? The Pope JPII, whom I met several times as a bishop, was a big proponent of the Marian cult and not shy about it, either. As a Pope, he never failed to visit sanctuaries in his travels. My comments about Christianity may be disputable, but about the Roman Catholic Church or even Eastern Orthodox portion of the religion are not.

danny ski said:

To pray to a dead human or an image or anything other than Gd is to violate the basic commandment. It's wrong and it's wrong to defend it.

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I agree since doing so blurs the line of what is being practised in idolatry.

Prayers as practised in the world are given to "gods" that answers them.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.

1 Thessalonians 5:7 Pray without ceasing. 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you........

Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Christians should pray to God the Father through the Son as in the name of Jesus. The Son is the only way we can pray to God the Father by. There is no other way. No believer is to pray even TO the Holy Spirit Whom is God BECAUSE that is not His job as Mediator to be answering prayers.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Why is it specified as the man Christ Jesus being our ONLY Mediator?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

He wasn't just talking about salvation here but how we can only approach God the Father by in prayer, fellowship, and worship.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it

The Father is only glorified in the Son for answered prayers and that is why all prayers are directed to God the Father through the Son. There is no other way.

Praying to a saint or Mary that has passed on to pray for us is not the same thing as asking someone down here to pray for us, because we are not "praying" to the people down here when asking them to pray for us.

Prayers as practised in the world are given to "gods" that answers them. Believers should avoid all appearance of evil in discerning & reproving the worldly practises that has crept into the churches if they wish to be His disciples and not a disciple of something else in His name.