Discussion Defending self and others.

SpiritPsalmist · May 23, 2015

Messy said:
The christians that are getting killed now by the people from ISIS who even kill their kids don't defend themselves and pray for them. I heard of a few of those murderers got saved because they saw that love. Now I'm not judging soldiers or anything that want to stop them, that's the sword of the government but if they came here and wanted to kill me and my children I wouldn't shoot, only in a leg maybe, but I can't even shoot and you're not allowed to have a weapon here. They asked Corrie ten Boom if she wanted to kill a nazi but she said no.

I believe ISIS and Natzi's are totally different situations.

hislegacy · May 23, 2015

The simple truth of scripture shows that in times of conflict God moved supernaturally and always, but always did one of two things.

1. Supernaturally protected His people. Like the Children of Israel crossing the Red Sea and Jehosaphat when he was surrounded.

or

2. God gave man wisdom and strength to defend himself. Remember why Moses was raising his arms? Because the people were defending themselves. Remember Abraham, who conquered two cities and carries away it's goods at God's direction.

But some would say, that changed in the New Testament.

Was tolerance preached - you bet
Did Jesus say we should love our enemies? You bet

Did Jesus ever command His followers to take up arms?

Let's look:

Luke 22:35 And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?”

So they said, “Nothing.”

36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end.”

I encourage you, read the verses before and after. Times changed, Jesus was telling them to get ready and get armed. What happened next? An armed confrontation in the Garden. A 9 year old can clearly see that. Wouldn't this have been the time to remind them not to resist evil? Wouldn't this been the perfect time for Jesus tell them to let their enemies hit their other cheek? That's what He taught. Instead, He instructed them to go get a weapon.

Look at the first great dispersal and how many Christian patriarcs were commanders of armies. Look at history and how many people, military and otherwise cite God's provision of both supernatural protection and provision of wisdom and strength to win battles.

Now some might say that is different from day to day life, and I would disagree wholeheartedly. There is plenty of first hand testimonies - even here on CF of how God spoke to people and did once again both - supernaturally provided for their safety or supernaturally gave them wisdom and strength to overcome.

Messy · May 23, 2015

He told them to buy a sword, but all the disciples except John got killed, they were persecuted.

hislegacy · May 23, 2015

Messy said:
He told them to buy a sword, but all the disciples except John got killed, they were persecuted.

You are correct, but that doesn't change scripture nor does it change history.

Not every Christian in the world dies a Martyrs death, nor will be. What's your point?

And some maniac breaking in your home, or attacking you on the street is not martyrdom.

Alithis · May 23, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
I believe ISIS and Natzi's are totally different situations.

the same spirit behind it ..and its not pro-Christ .

Alithis · May 23, 2015

RDKirk said:
An essential hermeneutical principle is first stated in Genesis 41:32: The doubling of Pharaoh's dream means that the thing is fixed by God.

That principle is repeated--in fact doubled--in the Mosaic Law: On the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses the one who is to die shall be put to death; a person shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness. Deuteronomy 17 and Deuteronomy 19

And the principle is given again repeatedly in the New Testament:

But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. Matthew 18

This is the third time I am coming to you. Every charge must be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. --- 2 Corinthians 13

Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 1 Timothy 5

Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. Hebrews 10

Bottom line is that all essential commands and principles are stated at least twice in scripture.

i agree they are . and having faith in God over and above our own abilities, is stated far far far more then two times throughout scripture

hislegacy · May 23, 2015

Alithis said:
i agree they are . and having faith in God over and above our own abilities, is stated far far far more then two times throughout scripture

I agree 100% faith in God is first and only. Being faithful to Him and hearing His voice is paramount.

That is why it is so important to know when He chooses to use divine protection, or is giving us wisdom and strength to overcome.

They are not separate, neither one ignores or honors God less, nor is less supported by scripture.

So yes, Just like Moses, Just Like Abraham, just like the disciples, who did not have faith in their abilities, but faith in God using what they had, we should always look to Him first.

RDKirk · May 23, 2015

Alithis said:
i agree they are . and having faith in God over and above our own abilities, is stated far far far more then two times throughout scripture

Hmm. That part I underlined would definitely exclude raising the sword in your own defense.

SpiritPsalmist · May 24, 2015

Messy said:
He told them to buy a sword, but all the disciples except John got killed, they were persecuted.

So that shows that in some situations it was expected that they be able to defend themselves. The fact that some were not able to defend themselves against persecution where the "government" killed them does not undo the fact that there was a sword at some point and it was expected to be used. By the time they were "persecuted" to death every thing they owned had been taken from them and they were dying for Jesus, not just dying because someone wanted to kill them for the heck of it. Surely, if you came upon someone who was molesting your child you would do more than just stand there and pray and bless them. The idea is to "STOP" them. If they die, they die, that was their choice. If they can be stopped without them dying that's great (except here in the States, if they live they are allowed to sue you because they got hurt...go figure).

SpiritPsalmist · May 24, 2015

Alithis said:
the same spirit behind it ..and its not pro-Christ .

...and your point is???? If ISIS breaks down my door and is going to chop my head off because I believe in Jesus then that is dying for Jesus. A rapist/murderer attacking a jogger is not dying because they believe in Jesus but because the rapist/murderer want to rape and murder. Yes, both are not pro-Christ, but one is martyrdom and the other is not.

Frogster · May 24, 2015

Provision is not just food. In fact, it would be odd to make sure your family is fed, clothed, but then stand there and watch one get attacked. 45 Acp frogster.

English Standard Version
1 Tm 5:But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Frogster · May 24, 2015

Heb 7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,

Alithis · May 24, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
...and your point is???? If ISIS breaks down my door and is going to chop my head off because I believe in Jesus then that is dying for Jesus. A rapist/murderer attacking a jogger is not dying because they believe in Jesus but because the rapist/murderer want to rape and murder. Yes, both are not pro-Christ, but one is martyrdom and the other is not.

perhaps ,perhaps not , we live in a world that is both physical and spiritual. to think a person who goes as far as to invade a home and do monstrosities ,is not being demonically influenced would be an error and to think one being murdered by the direct or indirect hand of the spirit of this world is not martyrdom, is not a call i can make

SpiritPsalmist · May 24, 2015

Alithis said:
perhaps ,perhaps not , we live in a world that is both physical and spiritual. to think a person who goes as far as to invade a home and do monstrosities ,is not being demonically influenced would be an error and to think one being murdered by the direct or indirect hand of the spirit of this world is not martyrdom, is not a call i can make

Fair enough. But if I'm able to defend myself, I plan on it.

So far I've never had to, the Lord has always protected me even though I'm not always aware of it. I try to not get myself into bad situations too.

Alithis · May 24, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
Fair enough. But if I'm able to defend myself, I plan on it. So far I've never had to, the Lord has always protected me even though I'm not always aware of it. I try to not get myself into bad situations too.

of course you will defend yourself ..i'v not met a human being that when struck by another human being does not raise up their arms and cover themselves to defend from the blows.. some also strike back or try to push the offender away , most attempt to place as much distance between themselves and their attacker as possible ..
in the scenario of the op ..i stated i would ( as im sure any one would rush in and get between the attacker and ones loved ones .. never said anything about maiming or killing them .its really an impossible scenario to gauge .
some folks can be all bold about what they"say" they would do ,but what they would "actually " do is an unknown .

hislegacy · May 24, 2015

Frogster said:
Provision is not just food. In fact, it would be odd to make sure your family id fed, clothed, but then stand there and watch one get attacked. 45 Acp frogster.

English Standard Version
1 Tm 5:But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Amen

brinny · May 24, 2015

Defending self and others.

The question is that comes to mind for me is:

is it a sin to defend and protect ones self and/or ones family, or the elderly woman in a wheelchair at a bus stop being surrounded in a menacing way, and you have a concealed carry permit and you pull your gun to "STOP" any harm from coming to her, and unfortunately one of the ten surrounding the elderly woman in the wheelchair takes a leap at you. Do you have the right to shoot? Is it a sin?

Thank you kindly.

Steve Petersen · May 24, 2015

South Bound said:
Two rounds, center mass.

Brilliant!

Messy · May 24, 2015

brinny said:
Defending self and others.

The question is that comes to mind for me is:

is it a sin to defend and protect ones self and/or ones family, or the elderly woman in a wheelchair at a bus stop being surrounded in a menacing way, and you have a concealed carry permit and you pull your gun to "STOP" any harm from coming to her, and unfortunately one of the ten surrounding the elderly woman in the wheelchair takes a leap at you. Do you have the right to shoot? Is it a sin?

Thank you kindly.

Don't think so as long as you don't kill him. The Old Testament said if a burglar came in your house and you hit him but he died it was no blood guilt.

Steve Petersen · May 24, 2015

The Torah forbids standing idly by while someone is in danger.

Thank God Jesus did away with this nonsense!

Discussion Defending self and others.

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