What do Messianics consider themselves a sect of?

DaveW-Ohev said:

Yeah - but that is not the whole story. He is VERY MUCH in favor of the gentile church as well. He sees a completely obedient gentile body that is almost completly devoid of anything Torah and a Jewish body that is very Torah observant. He has a serious problem with people like me who are gentiles in the messianic movement but apparently not with Jews in tradional churches. (hence his co-founding the Helsinki Consultation with a Jewish catholic priest)

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OK...thanks. Didn't know that.

DaveW-Ohev said:

We use "shul" and Moshe (pronounced moe SHAY) which are Yiddish and Hebrew respectively. Synagogue is one of those words that migrated from Greek into Hebrew.

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...ah yes....but real Jews say synagogue and Moses too. See what I'm getting at?

Don't you find that rather...ironic? Gentile Messianics rejecting things Jews take for granted as not being "Jewish enough"?

Actually "Moshe" did the same thing from ancient Egyptian where it meant "drawn out of..." For example Ra Moshe (aka Ramses) means drawn out of the sun.

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Not sure why you mentioned that. But yeah, we know this already.

DaveW-Ohev said:

He has a serious problem with people like me who are gentiles in the messianic movement but apparently not with Jews in tradional churches. (hence his co-founding the Helsinki Consultation with a Jewish catholic priest)

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This is because Jews in gentile churches can still understand their Jewish identity.

Does the Jewish catholic priest he is working with self identify as a Hebrew Catholic? I couldn't find anything on the website about this. However, if I had to bet money on it, I'd wager he does. As a Hebrew Catholic, I've never had problems with the Hashivenu crowd.

It seems to me that Messianic people generally come from and are more comparable in their tendencies to Protestantism. Messianics probably don't like to hear that, and many would want to be considered a part of the fold of Judaism. And ideally, that would be the case, but it is not.

Protestantism, Mormonism and Messianic Judaism are basically in competition for the same people (which is not to say that MJ is a dangerous competition to the other two.)

MJ occasionally gets influx from Traditional Judaism, and maybe vice versa, but as a general rule MJ is a gentile religion, a gentile reformation of Christianity. I am not saying that is good or that it is bad, it is just an observation.

Hoshiyya said:

It seems to me that Messianic people generally come from and more comparable in their tendencies to Protestantism. Messianics probably don't like to hear that, and many would want to be considered a part of the fold of Judaism. And ideally, that would be the case, but it is not.

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Truth.

Protestantism, Mormonism and Messianic Judaism are basically in competition for the same people

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Human beings?

MJ occasionally gets influx from Traditional Judaism, and maybe vice versa, but as a general rule MJ is a gentile religion, a gentile reformation of Christianity. I am not saying that is good or that it is bad, it is just an observation.

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Truth.

ContraMundum said:

Truth.



Human beings?



Truth.

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"Human beings?"

Yes. To me it seems that the people who convert to one of these religions I mentioned are generally speaking the same people who, if things went a bit different, could have converted to another of these, or who a few years or decades later convert to another of these. But that is just an observation from my limited position.

Hoshiyya said:

It seems to me that Messianic people generally come from and more comparable in their tendencies to Protestantism. Messianics probably don't like to hear that, and many would want to be considered a part of the fold of Judaism. And ideally, that would be the case, but it is not.

Protestantism, Mormonism and Messianic Judaism are basically in competition for the same people (which is not to say that MJ is a dangerous competition to the other two.)

MJ occasionally gets influx from Traditional Judaism, and maybe vice versa, but as a general rule MJ is a gentile religion, a gentile reformation of Christianity. I am not saying that is good or that it is bad, it is just an observation.

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I think, sadly, that you are right about all of this.

I don't consider myself a member of any sect, as that would mean they determine what I believe.

Depends on how you determine "sect". I think the term, as used here, is similar in meaning to "development of" or "subcategory of".

I also think the individualism exemplified in your post is a typical Protestant attitude.

pat34lee said:

I don't consider myself a member of any sect, as that would mean they determine what I believe.

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Your own pope, eh? Well okay. So what sect do you think MOST messianics see themselves as being most a part of?

Open Heart said:

Your own pope, eh? Well okay. So what sect do you think MOST messianics see themselves as being most a part of?

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Hopefully, believers. From experience though, that is giving too much credit. Most will probably pick MJ, as that is the most popular designation.

pat34lee said:

Hopefully, believers. From experience though, that is giving too much credit. Most will probably pick MJ, as that is the most popular designation.

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You don't understand the question. The question was an either or. Is Messianic Judaism more part of Judaism or Christianity?

Open Heart said:

You don't understand the question. The question was an either or. Is Messianic Judaism more part of Judaism or Christianity?

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Sorry, I was looking at another post. I don't consider it either Judaism or Christianity as we see them today. There are fundamental differences with each of them.

Open Heart said:

You don't understand the question. The question was an either or. Is Messianic Judaism more part of Judaism or Christianity?

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And if Christian, what type of Christianity is it historically developed from or related to ?

I think some people are too concerned with the theoretical differences between the religions and ideologies, and it blinds them from seeing the true similarities, or the true differences, that actually exist.

Theoretical differences may make two religions seem like polar opposites.
But if you look at the people, the concerns they have, the form of organization, the vocabulary, the assumptions about how often to meet, where to meet, what you do at a meeting, and so on, you may pick up on what is called de facto similarities.

If we look at de facto similarities, rather than the intangible theoretical differences, we will see that, for example, Scientology and Mormonism are very similar. Mormons don't believe in Thetans. Scientologists don't believe in Nephites. But so what ? Those beliefs are just that: beliefs. It is the actualities of a religion, the physical, tangible part of the religion, that really defines it. And when it comes to that, they are both modern, both originating and most successful in the US, both religions of the suit and tie, religions of the salesman, and very, very concerned with making money. Both have what are called "WASPs" as their primary target demographic for conversion.

Another example we could give is Nation of Islam. In theory, Nation of Islam is a form of Islam. But in reality, it is a development of the Afro-American form of Protestantism.

Hoshiyya said:

And if Christian, what type of Christianity is it historically developed from or related to ?

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I posted earlier that most messianics would likely consider themselves more a sect of Judaism. I personally, however, think that they are a sect of Protestantism. Their beginnings, middle, and end are Baptist, and many of them are Pentecostal.

Open Heart said:

I posted earlier that most messianics would likely consider themselves more a sect of Judaism. I personally, however, think that they are a sect of Protestantism. Their beginnings, middle, and end are Baptist, and many of them are Pentecostal.

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And I am seeing more and more parallels between MJ and Mormonism too. Especially as MJ becomes more and more rooted in America and American concerns.

On another forum I once visited the link was ineluctable. I just kept hearing about 1800's Republicanism, American laws, the Constitution, how the native Americans are probably Israelite, etc etc etc and all these alienating things.

As MJ becomes more Protestant it becomes more American, and vice versa, and I fear it will end up becoming an alienating American movement, when it should be an embracing, universal movement.

Hoshiyya said:

As MJ becomes more Protestant it becomes more American, and vice versa, and I fear it will end up becoming an alienating American movement, when it should be an embracing, universal movement.

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That's bad news.

The irony of the conversation is that the more you try to label and compartmentalize it, the worse it will be. Hoshiyya touched on a good point of functional beliefs. That is why most MJ identify with Judaism instead of Christianity. The functional parts of our lives, like Sabbath, clean meats, ect, are based on the same thing. Christians live their lives primarily based on what is right in their own eyes. It can also be funny to see how theoretical beliefs don't actually transfer into real life. I know a Calvinist who insists all our good works are "filthy rags", yet he puts a lot of time and energy into good works. I know several people who believe in a pre-trib rapture, yet they are serious preppers.

Hopefully MJ stays "disorganized". It would be a shame to get more labels and segregate everyone.

Hoshiyya said:

And I am seeing more and more parallels between MJ and Mormonism too. Especially as MJ becomes more and more rooted in America and American concerns.

On another forum I once visited the link was ineluctable. I just kept hearing about 1800's Republicanism, American laws, the Constitution, how the native Americans are probably Israelite, etc etc etc and all these alienating things.

As MJ becomes more Protestant it becomes more American, and vice versa, and I fear it will end up becoming an alienating American movement, when it should be an embracing, universal movement.

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Yep. Good post. I've been saying this for years.