I've noticed that at least in the states many christians are also libertarians. I'm wondering why this is, since much of it seems contrary to what christians generally believe.
What draws some Christians to libertarianism?
- Thread starter HammerOfThor
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Considering how many people vote for a party that want to take from the needy and give more to the wealthy, your guess is as good as mine.
Alas, no party is perfect and even if there was a Christian party, there would still be disagreements and division. Just the nature of things, really.
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Perhaps the better questions to ask would be: 1) why would one vote for a party which removed God from its platform, or 2) why would one vote for a party which took us into a ten plus year extended war?
The answer is, quite simply, that no political party represents Christians and no political party is doing the work of Christianity.
The answer is, quite simply, that no political party represents Christians and no political party is doing the work of Christianity.
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While I can't speak for Christians, as a libertarian who has numerous Christian-libertarian friends, I can tell you what some of their attitudes are toward the subject.
A few have the attitude that neither major party can do it right, so they opt for the position that "if the government can't do this right, I prefer they just stay out of it"
Many, while Christian, still don't want the state involved in moral issues because they strictly believe in the idea of free will and that the individual communes with his own god and defines his own morals.
At it's core, Libertarianism is essentially "minimum government, maximum freedom".
It's not about wanting the government to take one stance or another on social issues, it's about not wanting them to take a stance at all and simply protect our individual right to take the stance we choose.
This idea can appeal to many faiths.
I'll coin my phrase (that I've used in numerous threads).
You think like a libertarian when you're interested in protecting the things you like...you start thinking like a Democrat or Republican when you want to stop other people from doing the things you don't like.
Talk to some Democrats and Republicans and you'll see that this is largely true.
Talk to a hardcore Democrat about abortion and you'll hear the slogan: "Keep you laws off my body!", yet, many of those same people have no shortage of ideas in terms of what gun owners and business owners shouldn't be allowed to do.
Talk to a hardcore Republican about taxation and you'll hear them say: "They government doesn't have a right to forcibly take 30% of my income, that's my money, I should be allowed to keep it!", yet, many of those same people have no shortage of ideas about what other peoples' kids should be allowed to learn in school and what another adult can consume in the privacy of their own home.
To coin someone else's phrase:
If you can convince the gun people the dope is okay, and convince the dope people that guns are okay...we'd all be libertarians.
A few have the attitude that neither major party can do it right, so they opt for the position that "if the government can't do this right, I prefer they just stay out of it"
Many, while Christian, still don't want the state involved in moral issues because they strictly believe in the idea of free will and that the individual communes with his own god and defines his own morals.
At it's core, Libertarianism is essentially "minimum government, maximum freedom".
It's not about wanting the government to take one stance or another on social issues, it's about not wanting them to take a stance at all and simply protect our individual right to take the stance we choose.
This idea can appeal to many faiths.
I'll coin my phrase (that I've used in numerous threads).
You think like a libertarian when you're interested in protecting the things you like...you start thinking like a Democrat or Republican when you want to stop other people from doing the things you don't like.
Talk to some Democrats and Republicans and you'll see that this is largely true.
Talk to a hardcore Democrat about abortion and you'll hear the slogan: "Keep you laws off my body!", yet, many of those same people have no shortage of ideas in terms of what gun owners and business owners shouldn't be allowed to do.
Talk to a hardcore Republican about taxation and you'll hear them say: "They government doesn't have a right to forcibly take 30% of my income, that's my money, I should be allowed to keep it!", yet, many of those same people have no shortage of ideas about what other peoples' kids should be allowed to learn in school and what another adult can consume in the privacy of their own home.
To coin someone else's phrase:
If you can convince the gun people the dope is okay, and convince the dope people that guns are okay...we'd all be libertarians.
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- Apr 19, 2012
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I can believe that the government should stay out of my life and in personal responsability ( tighter safety net controls) without supporting people's choices.
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This doesn't explain why they would want a system where capitalism is completely unrestrained.
It's not really "minimum government" it's "just enough government for free for all capitalism".
What about taxes?
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That's the issue when discussing libertarianism...people want to immediately discuss the polar extreme of the circumstances...similar to when you bring it up and a person immediately rebuttals with "Well, I guess you don't like roads an hospitals!"
There's a lot of middle ground between common sense governing, and a bloated 3 Trillion dollar a year bureaucracy.
...and I think we all know that.
Nowhere in the modern libertarian party platform does it advocate this financial anarchy of which you speak.
The last libertarian party candidate held the following economic goals:
- Eliminating the concept of government bailouts
- Eliminating stimulus packages
- Scaling back (not eliminating) defense spending and entitlement programs
- Stop relying on the failed concept of trickle-down economics by bailing out rich people
- Reign in the fractional reserve banking system
In terms of taxation, this is the system he was advocating
https://fairtax.org/about/how-fairtax-works
Penn articulates the modern libertarianism position very well:
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I wasn't talking about roads, I was talking about a social safety net and measures to prevent monopolies, and other things like that. Libertarians support government roads, private property, and other essentials for capitalism to exist, but once they have done that they let it run free without restraint.
It seems like it's everywhere, not nowhere:
"2.5 Money and Financial Markets We favor free-market banking, with unrestricted competition among banks and depository institutions of all types. "
"We call for the repeal of the income tax, the abolishment of the Internal Revenue Service and all federal programs and services not required under the U.S. Constitution. "
"Bargaining should be free of government interference, such as compulsory arbitration or imposing an obligation to bargain. "
"We favor a free market health care system."
"Retirement planning is the responsibility of the individual, not the government. Libertarians would phase out the current government-sponsored Social Security system and transition to a private voluntary system. "
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Well, retirement planning IS the responsibility of the individual. Remember, when social security started it was not meant for people to have for over a decade in some cases two or three ( the average life span is I believe 78 for men and 80 or 81 for women) No it was meant for the last few years of life. NOR, was it meant to be the sole source of income for people.
As for healthcare, same deal you are responsible for your own healthcare and your own lifestyle choices. Look, I am overweight, but I will not expect people to pay for my poor choices with no assistance on tax payer dollars. Not all, but MANY health problems can be linked in part to various lifestyle choices people did or did not make. You should not expect taxes to pay for those decisions. Should we help if we can certainly should the government REQUIRE us to help ( pay taxes for that serve no.
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Paradoxum
Liberty, Equality, Solidarity!
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Because they don't believe in oppressing people with their morals. Liberty, regardless of morality, should be a primary legal principle. Freedom over authoritarianism basically.
They also believe right wing economic policies help people best.
They also believe right wing economic policies help people best.
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Competition is the gist of the libertarian argument for many. Competition forces businesses to make improvements and to provide services at minimal cost.
The current banking system is extremely limited in regards to competition. Rather than competition where bad actors go out of business we now have "too big to fail". Even bad businesses are given government money to continue their poor business practices. Rather than fostering competition the government enacts onerous regulations which prevent new competitors from entering into many markets.
Competition is a wonderful thing. Libertarians embrace it.
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Christians are told that they are not of this world and that their kingdom is not of this world. Many Christians stay out of politics altogether as the commandments of Christ to His disciples are hardly considered by any political parties or politicians. But when Christians do chose to wade into politics, it makes sense that they would often be attracted to the party or candidates that least favor the enforcing of any particular doctrine.
It seems you are perplexed at why Christians would support a party that allows un-Christian behavior, but it is actually quite closely inline with the Christian belief that God's kingdom on earth is not something to be forcibly brought about by Christians, but is something that grows within individuals and that God Himself is responsible for implementing His kingdom on earth in His own perfect time.
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TLK Valentine
I've already read the books you want burned.
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Possibly because God belong's in a person's heart, not on a political platform?
If Christianity is, as many of its followers claim, not so much a religion as a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, then it would make sense that many Christians would want to keep that relationship personal -- they respect God too much to use Him as a political tool.
Possibly because... um... er... reasons?
Indeed -- Realizing that, voters are more inclined to vote in accordance with their own best interests, and dedicate other aspects of their lives to pleasing God.
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South Bound
I stand with Israel.
Oh, this ought to be good. OK. I'll bite: How is libertarianism contrary to Christianity?
For me, I am a libertarian because I believe that all men have unalienable rights endowed to them by their Creator, that "nature and nature's God" tells us that man has the right to sovereignty over his choices, and that the purpose of government is to restrain evil, not to regulate every minute detail of our lives.
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South Bound
I stand with Israel.
Actually, libertarians are among the first to point out that the Constitution doesn't give the federal government the authority to build or control highways, and that some highways should be privatized.
Agreed.
Why wouldn't we? What business does the government have restraining trade between two people or a group of people?
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Unrestricted competition isn't the same thing as unrestricted economy and unrestricted businesses.
Unrestricted competition simply means that the government isn't going to pick winners and losers and isn't going to step in to bail out one institution, but not another.
"Not taking sides" isn't the same thing as "not imposing any laws that a business has to follow".
I already posted what the tax solution was that they wanted to replace the income tax with....FairTax (which I linked). Doesn't look like you included that in the part you quoted. They're not doing away with the concept of taxation, the want to abolish the income tax and replace it with a tax that makes more sense.
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Great, we agree on that 100%.
That's why I'm always puzzled with the attitudes of some left-leaning Christians.
When the topic is marriage, or abortion, or school sanctioned prayer, they come out and say that "the government shouldn't be endorsing religious views" -- which I agree with 100% btw.
However, when the topic is welfare or healthcare, those same folks don't hesitate to bring up that we should expand those programs because "Jesus told us that we have a duty to take care of the poor".
I've brought that up to them in numerous threads, and thus far, the only response I've ever gotten from them is "well, uh, Republicans cherry pick too!"
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Reading some good replies here on both sides of this issue. More people do need to be aware of the wrongs in BOTH parties but too many people disagree on what is right and what is wrong. Even preachers that are suppose to be religious, spiritual, whatever word you want to use they claim to really be followers of Jesus but yet so many interpret the Bible the same scriptures in so many different ways. If there is a God it will ONLY be Him that in the end will judge who was right and who was wrong with the interpretations they put on the Scriptures but if there is that much confusion within those that are Bible believers then how could those that claim to be Christians expect all people to agree with them on political issues or with politicians on what's best for this country when they can't even agree on how to interpret a Bible Scripture. I am NOT trying to be critical but it's just how it is.
I also believe that so many people do so much preaching on what they believe to be right or wrong while not showing the love of God until while I could be totally wrong on this I do believe it is why there is not more believers! And why so many are turned off of religion. People can preach God's word but are they showing God's love? Again so many would probably disagree on how to even do that.
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As a Christian, I agree with a libertarian point of view because I believe in liberty first and foremost. To me, governments of men are simply a necessary evil. The less the government is involved in our lives the better.
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TLK Valentine
I've already read the books you want burned.
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Great, we agree on that 100%.
That's why I'm always puzzled with the attitudes of some left-leaning Christians.
When the topic is marriage, or abortion, or school sanctioned prayer, they come out and say that "the government shouldn't be endorsing religious views" -- which I agree with 100% btw.
However, when the topic is welfare or healthcare, those same folks don't hesitate to bring up that we should expand those programs because "Jesus told us that we have a duty to take care of the poor".
I've brought that up to them in numerous threads, and thus far, the only response I've ever gotten from them is "well, uh, Republicans cherry pick too!"
So both sides are using God to support their agendas... agreed.
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