Discussion Defending self and others.

Alithis · May 22, 2015

we live in a fallen world and the weapons of our warfare are not carnal. not of flesh and blood .but spiritual ....
its high time we all began to use them .the flesh approach has accomplished us nothing but the first words posted we " if that worked " which is to say "don't trust in God it wont work "-
we must really look careful at what it is we truly believe because those words lack belief and trust.
the situation has not ended and God is yet to be glorified in every situation ..keep trusting ,keep believing, that's faith ..it is not based on the seen

Simply Put said:
What are you saying? no, never mind

i believe ,to use your own words , that your trying (and succeeding ) to make it "personal and all about me "

the post i replied to is not about self defense it is about revenge after the fact .. and the expressions of emotions are fully understandable, but not to be entertained nor acted upon .
why ? well what does the lord say? " vengeance is mine I will repay "

Boidae · May 22, 2015

Simply Put said:
As a father of six, my heart goes out to you and your daughter. I will be praying for her and your family.

Thank you!

I have been blaming myself and God for a bit. I blame myself for not being there to protect her. If only I was there, I could have done something to prevent it from ever happening.

Alithis · May 22, 2015

Messy said:
I'm glad I live in Holland. I'd bind the devil and send him and that person out of my house or use a poll or something if that doesn't work. I once met a rapist in a wood when I was biking there alone at 11 pm and I said God is HERE. He was terrified and did nothing anymore.

i know right ? the lord is able ... a few years back now in nz there was a serial rapist i think he had 69 cases of entering houses where he committed his crime.. before he was caught .All except for one .She awoke to find the man standing in her room and she began to pray in the name of Jesus ... he turned and left ..in no other case did he do that . God is able

hislegacy · May 22, 2015

Boidae said:
Thank you!

I have been blaming myself and God for a bit. I blame myself for not being there to protect her. If only I was there, I could have done something to prevent it from ever happening.

Let's just say you are starting to walk a path to restoration with your daughter that I have had to walk also.

Here is what I learned through the process:

1. It certainly isn't her fault and she will need to hear that from you over and over and over again.

2. It sure isn't your fault, if you could have known or been there it would not have happened. Don't take the responsibility for this on yourself, place it were it belongs.

3. Get the child and family into a good counseling situation and let her stay there as long as she feels the need.

4. Don't give the perpetrator on inch of mercy, yet do everything lawfully

5. Mark this down. Be ready because a couple years down the road you will have address the feelings again. They revisit during or shortly after puberty.

As for why the disciples were COMMANDED by Jesus to buy swords, it is clear as to the need, common sense shows it.

hislegacy · May 22, 2015

Alithis said:
i know right ? the lord is able ... a few years back now in nz there was a serial rapist i think he had 69 cases of entering houses where he committed his crime.. before he was caught .All except for one .She awoke to find the man standing in her room and she began to pray in the name of Jesus ... he turned and left ..in no other case did he do that . God is able

And if the first or second person was trained in self defense. 68 or so would have never been raped.

How do we know that not one of 69 people did not cry out to God for help? Are to assume it was Gods will for all these people were raped?

Boidae · May 22, 2015

Simply Put said:
Let's just say you are starting to walk a path to restoration with your daughter that I have had to walk also.

Here is what I learned through the process:

1. It certainly isn't her fault and she will need to hear that from you over and over and over again.

2. It sure isn't your fault, if you could have known or been there it would not have happened. Don't take the responsibility for this on yourself, place it were it belongs.

3. Get the child and family into a good counseling situation and let her stay there as long as she feels the need.

4. Don't give the perpetrator on inch of mercy, yet do everything lawfully

5. Mark this down. Be ready because a couple years down the road you will have address the feelings again. They revisit during or shortly after puberty.

As for why the disciples were COMMANDED by Jesus to buy swords, it is clear as to the need, common sense shows it.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I am going to respond to one of the numbers as I do not have time to respond to them all currently.

For #4. I wish this is what would happen, but her mother whom she lives with doesn't want to press charges. She doesn't want my daughter to have to go to court. So he will not be facing charges.

Needless to say I am not happy at all and what makes it worse is that I have no say in the matter.

hislegacy · May 22, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
I'd call the police and do what I could to stop him until they got there.

Alithis said:
i think -speaking of the actual scenario, - love would take over -i would run in calling on the lord and pull off the attacker and get between him & my loved ones - i think any one would

Messy said:
I'm glad I live in Holland. I'd bind the devil and send him and that person out of my house or use a poll or something if that doesn't work. I once met a rapist in a wood when I was biking there alone at 11 pm and I said God is HERE. He was terrified and did nothing anymore.

So we have three responses:

One: "do what I could do to stop him"

Two: "pull off the attacker and get between him and my loved one"

Three: "or use a poll or something like that"

All three physically responding to the attack. Not one would just sit back and Do nothing. Each one has a back up plan.

Messy · May 22, 2015

Simply Put said:
So we have three responses:

One: "do what I could do to stop him"

Two: "pull off the attacker and get between him and my loved one"

Three: "or use a poll or something like that"

All three physically responding to the attack. Not one would just sit back and Do nothing. Each one has a back up plan.

A pole, this phone changes everything I type.
But yes I would do something if necessary, but not kill someone. I'd rather pray because I'm not strong physically.

SpiritPsalmist · May 22, 2015

Simply Put said:
So we have three responses:

One: "do what I could do to stop him"

Two: "pull off the attacker and get between him and my loved one"

Three: "or use a poll or something like that"

All three physically responding to the attack. Not one would just sit back and Do nothing. Each one has a back up plan.

This made me think of something that happened when I was a teenager. I and my little brother, he was about 8 were at home and my mom was out. My brother came in the bedroom where I was and told me he'd set his closet on fire. I rushed into his bedroom, saw the flames, ran and got a large cooking pot, filled with water in the tub and began running back and forth from the bathroom to the bedroom throwing water on the fire, praying, and yelling at him the whole time. Of course now I'm quite a bit older than I was then and don't know that I could be as physical as I was then but I think if there was something to grab I'd be pounding the intruder, making as much noise as possible to draw attention, and calling the police.

SpiritPsalmist · May 22, 2015

Boidae said:
If only that worked for my daughter.

As I told you before, free will of another will not be tread upon by God.

I pray for my children's protection daily, trusting that God will protect them, yet my daughter was sexually abused for two months and I found out about it last Wednesday when she told me.

If I walked in on him abusing my daughter, they would be questioning from the hospital.

A year or so ago, I don't remember what part of the country it was but a man walked behind his barn and found one of the farmhands molesting his little daughter. The father beat him to death. In the recorded 911 call the father was sobbing saying what he's found and that he did not mean to kill the guy. The dad was not charged with any wrong doing.

I think it's perfectly ok with God for us to defend ourselves. Torah allows for it. Yeshua allowed for it in the time he told his disciples to take a sword. No one has to be at the mercy of a murderer or rapist. I know the stories of Gods deliverance and have trusted God for my own safety and He's always been there, but I believe there are times when God gives us the strength to do what is necessary for us to do and He protects us at the same time. If the murder or rapist dies in the process I am not condemned by God for that.

hislegacy · May 22, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
I know the stories of Gods deliverance and have trusted God for my own safety and He's always been there, but I believe there are times when God gives us the strength to do what is necessary for us to do and He protects us at the same time. If the murder or rapist dies in the process I am not condemned by God for that.

Amen! every instance of defense in scripture falls into one of two scenarios. Either God's divine intervention or God's empowering a person or people to defeat the threat with their own hands.

Messy · May 23, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
A year or so ago, I don't remember what part of the country it was but a man walked behind his barn and found one of the farmhands molesting his little daughter. The father beat him to death. In the recorded 911 call the father was sobbing saying what he's found and that he did not mean to kill the guy. The dad was not charged with any wrong doing.

I think it's perfectly ok with God for us to defend ourselves. Torah allows for it. Yeshua allowed for it in the time he told his disciples to take a sword. No one has to be at the mercy of a murderer or rapist. I know the stories of Gods deliverance and have trusted God for my own safety and He's always been there, but I believe there are times when God gives us the strength to do what is necessary for us to do and He protects us at the same time. If the murder or rapist dies in the process I am not condemned by God for that.

I may not be condemned for it but he spends an eternity in hell and I don't want to be responsible for that.
Or do it like Jimmy Swagger once said: tell em about Jesus and put them on an Electric chair. Sick.
T.B. Joshua had a guy from Boko Haram in their service to kill them. He just bound that devil and set him free and brought him to repentance.

Alithis · May 23, 2015

isnt it interesting, the double mindedness of people .
those who speak of grace and so oppose "the law" then call upon "the law " to self justify their own choice of action-Its rather an overt contradiction i must say .

and the message is so mixed and has become so uncertain-

have faith in God they say.. but don't have faith in God because he cant do anything . but believe that he can but don't have faith in him to do so but have faith in him but dont trust him but trust him but don't believe he can do everything but believe he can do everything but dont trust him to do anything ...the doublmindedness is astounding and we wonder why the western church is "unstable in all its ways "
just as the epistle of James explains to us .

But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do

and again he says "-Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.” 14 Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15 Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.” 16 As it is, you boast in your arrogant schemes. All such boasting is evil. 17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.
so it is important to seek God for hat we do and take part in and to trust him in all things .

SpiritPsalmist · May 23, 2015

Messy said:
I may not be condemned for it but he spends an eternity in hell and I don't want to be responsible for that.
Or do it like Jimmy Swagger once said: tell em about Jesus and put them on an Electric chair. Sick.
T.B. Joshua had a guy from Boko Haram in their service to kill them. He just bound that devil and set him free and brought him to repentance.

You aren't responsible for that, they are. God is the final One who decides when someone dies. When it's their time, if it comes at my hands while they are committing a crime, that does not necessarily mean they are going to hell, and it does not mean at all that I'm responsible for it if they do.

Messy · May 23, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
You aren't responsible for that, they are. God is the final One who decides when someone dies. When it's their time, if it comes at my hands while they are committing a crime, that does not necessarily mean they are going to hell, and it does not mean at all that I'm responsible for it if they do.

Of course they go to hell when they're trying to rape or kill someone and aren't even saved and I shot them to go there. No thanks except when it's Hitler or Mengele, then I couldn't care less.

brinny · May 23, 2015

Messy said:
Of course they go to hell when they're trying to rape or kill someone and aren't even saved and I shot them to go there. No thanks except when it's Hitler or Mengele, then I couldn't care less.

You've just contradicted yerself, dear heart. This IS a difficult topic, yet all throughout the Bible God gives clear direction and wisdom and discernment in just such situations. The subtle dilemma here, is that we could very well be "bowing down" and/or "honoring" evil rather than God when we don't stand against evil. God stands for righteousness, truth, and justice, especially when it comes to victims, the oppressed, the downcast, and those being targeted for evil.

We do what we can in any given situation, and God is the One Who takes care of the violent and evil perpetrator's soul and their standing with Him. He knows them better than we do, and has already taken into account their hearts for, or against Him.

Love you sis (((hug)))

Messy · May 23, 2015

brinny said:
You've just contradicted yerself, dear heart. This IS a difficult topic, yet all throughout the Bible God gives clear direction and wisdom and discernment in just such situations. The subtle dilemma here, is that we could very well be "bowing down" and/or "honoring" evil rather than God when we don't stand against evil. God stands for righteousness, truth, and justice, especially when it comes to victims, the oppressed, the downcast, and those being targeted for evil.

We do what we can in any given situation, and God is the One Who takes care of the violent and evil perpetrator's soul and their standing with Him. He knows them better than we do, and has already taken into account their hearts for, or against Him.

Love you sis (((hug)))

The christians that are getting killed now by the people from ISIS who even kill their kids don't defend themselves and pray for them. I heard of a few of those murderers got saved because they saw that love. Now I'm not judging soldiers or anything that want to stop them, that's the sword of the government but if they came here and wanted to kill me and my children I wouldn't shoot, only in a leg maybe, but I can't even shoot and you're not allowed to have a weapon here. They asked Corrie ten Boom if she wanted to kill a nazi but she said no.

brinny · May 23, 2015

Messy said:
The christians that are getting killed now by the people from ISIS who even kill their kids don't defend themselves and pray for them. I heard of a few of those murderers got saved because they saw that love. Now I'm not judging soldiers or anything that want to stop them, that's the sword of the government but if they came here and wanted to kill me and my children I wouldn't shoot, only in a leg maybe, but I can't even shoot and you're not allowed to have a weapon here. They asked Corrie ten Boom if she wanted to kill a nazi but she said no.

You contradicted yourself in your last sentence below. I highlighted where you contradicted yourself. It IS a HUGELY difficult issue, and God's discernment and wisdom is needed in ALL situations, sister. Love you sis (((hug)))

Messy said: ↑
Of course they go to hell when they're trying to rape or kill someone and aren't even saved and I shot them to go there. No thanks except when it's Hitler or Mengele, then I couldn't care less.

SpiritPsalmist · May 23, 2015

Messy said:
Of course they go to hell when they're trying to rape or kill someone and aren't even saved and I shot them to go there. No thanks except when it's Hitler or Mengele, then I couldn't care less.

We can assume they go to hell but, because we're not God, we don't really know, and again, it's not the fault of the one who kills them in self defense. Going according to your logic, lets say they kill you because you could not bring yourself to defend yourself, then they go on to torture and kill your family and other families.....how does that set with you? Please understand, killing them would not be something I took lightly but to allow them to continue on a spree of murdering after they'd murdered me when I could have stopped them, is unacceptable too.

RDKirk · May 23, 2015

Alithis said:
i dont know .. do you ? in truth ?

balance it against everything else we are instructed ,quite clearly, without ambiguity ,to do .
weigh it up against trust and faith against both not walking in our own strength about having no confidence in the flesh etc .

personally im not going to build a doctrinal stance on a singular partial piece of text .

An essential hermeneutical principle is first stated in Genesis 41:32: The doubling of Pharaoh's dream means that the thing is fixed by God.

That principle is repeated--in fact doubled--in the Mosaic Law: On the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses the one who is to die shall be put to death; a person shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness. Deuteronomy 17 and Deuteronomy 19

And the principle is given again repeatedly in the New Testament:

But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. Matthew 18

This is the third time I am coming to you. Every charge must be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. --- 2 Corinthians 13

Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 1 Timothy 5

Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. Hebrews 10

Bottom line is that all essential commands and principles are stated at least twice in scripture.

Discussion Defending self and others.

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