Is the Church Raptured in Revelation 4

vinsight4u

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The 5th seal talk about those who were slain for their testimony for Jesus and for the word of God wearing righteousness outfits and it was said to them to wait until their fellows and brethren who must be slain as they were should be fulfilled.Do you think that the Saints returning with Jesus in Revelation 19 are wearing
righteousness outfits because they were slain?

No.
In Rev. 19 the saints have been changed to immortality as the wife.

John sees the righteousness outfits for the first time in Rev. 19.
fine linen
not - the fine linen

They have not been given eternal life in the time of the 5th seal,
but only white robes that show they died for Jesus Christ as martyrs.
The ones in Rev. 7 died as martyrs from great tribulation.
The great tribulation events are the mystery of God that ends at
the 7th trumpet. These events were shown to John in order and then
he had to jumble them once the seven thunders spoke.
The chapters after the 7th trumpet/Rev. 11 come to us due to visions
John was allowed to experience because he ate the little open book.
This was so he prophesy again /more. Once the mystery of God section
ends at the 7th trumpet, there was still more to prophesy.
 
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vinsight4u

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The seals of Revelation.
Is the first seal the Gospel or the church going forth?

The church doesn't gain crowns until His appearing.

The church is never said to carry a bow.
Nations begin by a bow.
Nations fall when the bow is removed. /God -breaks the bow

Is a white horse shown elsewhere?
Zech. 6
What was it there?
a spirit of the heavens
What does that mean?
a spirit for rulers on earth

white - the spirit of wisdom and understanding
With it - one gets a crown delivered to them

What was happening in Zech. 5-6?
Shinar - Iraq's land would rebuild in the end days.
Why is that going to happen?
Because there was a curse hunting the earth for the place at
fault for stealing where God has His name.
It found only pieces of that guilty place.
Why?
Because Shinar - Babylon had already fallen.
She was chaff - the wind would have to carry part of
it back to Shinar and let her rebuild the kingdom.
This way there will be a house for the curse to enter
into and consume.
 
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Postvieww

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Both the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet bring the wrath of God.
Therefore the 7th trumpet happens around the time of the 6th seal.

Both the 7th trumpet and the 6th seal have trib over events.

What falls in the time of the 6th seal?

all the stars

so - when did Jesus place the stars of heaven falling event?
/after the great tribulation
/after the time of a man that Daniel warned us of

Vin I believe you are on the right track here. I believe seals, trumpets and and vials all end about the same time while starting at different times. Seal 6 mentions wrath, trumpet 7 mentions wrath and the vials are the wrath. I’m convinced the first 4 seals have already been opened, and we are near the beginning or already in the 5th seal. Some of the trumpets I believe have already sounded as well. The vials, which are the wrath referred to in the sixth seal and seventh trumpet will be in more rapid succession at the end. The 7th seal describes events in heaven only. Many will attack this narrative but there are many historical reasons to back this up. Just consider the white horse represents Catholicism, the red horse communism, the black horse capitalism, the pale (or green horse in the Greek) Islam. All four major forces and factors in our world today. Much more info on this, this is just a brief outline.
 
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Riberra

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No.
In Rev. 19 the saints have been changed to immortality as the wife.
The reason why the Saints (dead in Christ) have been changed to immortality in Rev 19 is because that their resurrection will happen at that moment.The marriage will happen at the moment of the resurrection of those who died in Christ and the caught up and gathering of those in Christ alive and remain with them to meet Jesus in the clouds in the air upon Jesus second coming just before the Armageddon battle.
 
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Riberra

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Well RB I see it a bit different than you do, but the Lord's true ecclesia will get there in one way or another

I believe that Matthew 24 is all about Israel during the coming 70 week decreed for a returned remnant of the same to the land .... and the gathering will be of the believing mortal survivors of the time of Jacob's trouble who will enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Matthew 24:29-31]
Isaiah 11 is about the Millennium who is part of the Day of the Lord beginning upon Jesus second coming.... Isaiah 11:11 have nothing to do with the formation of the State of Israel in 1948 (synagogue of Satan (Rev 3:9)... ***see explanations below.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+11;+27:12-13&version=KJV
Isaiah 11
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth

Straightshot said:
Then the Lord will gather the surviving mortals of the period of the Gentile nations and those that are found believing will enter the same [Matthew 25:31-46]
Agreed !
Straightshot said:
But today's true ecclesia of both the dead in Christ and those living [Jew or Gentile] will go before as immortals [Revelation 3:10]
Why do you think that the address to the Church of Philadelphia is limited to Revelation 3 verse 10 only ... ? Why is there verse 12 saying to the same Church of Philadelphia about overcoming:
"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God,"v12 ... overcoming what if as you believe they will not be there ????
Revelation 3
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The explanation for Revelation 3:10
The hour of temptation that we will be keep from (falling ) is related to
.... how even the elect if it were possible, would be deceived (Matthew 24:24) ...
That is why...
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Explanation
***

The formation of the State of Israel in 1948 is in line with that end time prophecy (Rev 3:9) ... and of course about the prophecies related with the State of Israel during the future Tribulation.

Revelation 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
 
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bibletruth469

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My response to the op :

we are not told the timing of exactly when the rapture will occur in revelation, however the 24 elders are mentioned in rev 4:4. They have crowns on their heads and are clothed in white garments. I believe that the 24 elders represent the church that is in heaven. I also believe that the book of revelation's format is in chronological order. Therefore one must presume a pre tribulation rapture.
 
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Straightshot

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Why do you think that the address to the Church of Philadelphia is limited to Revelation 3 verse 10 only ... ? Why is there verse 12 saying to the same Church of Philadelphia about overcoming:
"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God,"v12 ... overcoming what if as you believe they will not be there ????

Over coming is what you should be doing .... sticking to the truth RB

And if you do, the Lord will keep you from His coming wrath of the tribulation period

Are you letting some body steal your crown by your refutation of His promise?

And if alive at the time and you do find yourself in the tribulation ..... you are going to have a bad time

If so, make certain that you repent as the Lord has commanded [Revelation 3:9-15]
 
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Postvieww

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To Bibletruth469 and Straightshot

The 24 elders are most often with the 4 beasts. Who do the 4 beast represent? The elders and the beasts both worship and praise God. Rev 4:8-11. They both have” harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints” . Rev 5:8 Who prayed these prayers if the saints are all in heaven?

In Rev 4:11 the elders and the beasts are in the company of “ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands” of angels not a raptured church.

In Rev 7:9-15 the elders and 4 beasts with the angels are around the throne with the Lamb, also are the great multitude which “are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” Not they that came out of the entire church age. I believe they are the souls of those killed in the great tribulation just as those in Rev 6:9. Not a resurrected raptured company only the souls of those killed as specified in scripture.

The elders are more easily identified with the heavenly host, angels and the four beast not the church.

Crowns and white garments do not identify them as a raptured church Jesus as well as angels are shown in scripture as having white garments.

As our brother Lamad has pointed out in the past Rev 5:1-6 shows Jesus arrival to heaven at the time he assended after his resurrection. The elders and the four beasts were already there before Jesus arrives. How can the elders be or represent the raptured church?

If you have a question about Rev 5:9-10 in the KJV

Darby Rev 5: 9 And they sing a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open its seals; because thou hast been slain, and hast redeemed to God, by thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

10 and made them to our God kings and priests; and they shall reign over the earth.

ASV Rev 5: 9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.

These translations give an entirely different perspective than does the KJV.

I would appreciate a serious attempt to answer the questions I’ve raised here, I ask them with a serious intent to truly understand what scripture teaches on this point.
 
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Straightshot

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Good questions Postview:

Briefly .....

These 4 beasts are Cherubs .... they are of the top order of the angelic realm

The 24 elders and great multitude are the Lord's true ecclesia [called out ones] from the beginning of human creation

All are seen dwelling in heaven as Revelation moves forward during the coming tribulation [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4] [those on thrones .... symbol of the Lord's government]

There will be those on the earth that become believers during the tribulation .... and many will be killed for their faith, but these will have to wait until the end of the period to be resurrected [Revelation 6:9-11; 14:13; 20:4] [those beheaded]

The Lord is eternal [He is both God and human] and is always in the immortal state of being [John 1:1-14] .... He came to the earth and took on human for demonstration of His willingness to provide salvation for humans .... so He doesn't just arrive in heaven after His angels and the 24 plus the GTM

I would recommend the KJV for Bibe study .... what is it that you question with your comparison?

And it is the serious person who sticks to the task of studying theyself approved that gets the job done

All you need is you Bible and the Lord's guidance by His holy spirit and He will lead you into all truth .... this will take time, but keep on task
 
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Good questions Postview:

Briefly .....

These 4 beasts are Cherubs .... they are of the top order of the angelic realm

The 24 elders and great multitude are the Lord's true ecclesia [called out ones] from the beginning of human creation

All are seen dwelling in heaven as Revelation moves forward during the coming tribulation [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4] [those on thrones .... symbol of the Lord's government]

There will be those on the earth that become believers during the tribulation .... and many will be killed for their faith, but these will have to wait until the end of the period to be resurrected [Revelation 6:9-11; 14:13; 20:4] [those beheaded]

The Lord is eternal [He is both God and human] and is always in the immortal state of being [John 1:1-14] .... He came to the earth and took on human for demonstration of His willingness to provide salvation for humans .... so He doesn't just arrive in heaven after His angels and the 24 plus the GTM

I would recommend the KJV for Bibe study .... what is it that you question with your comparison?

And it is the serious person who sticks to the task of studying theyself approved that gets the job done

All you need is you Bible and the Lord's guidance by His holy spirit and He will lead you into all truth .... this will take time, but keep on task

Thanks for your response, let me further clarify some points I made.

I use KJV first and foremost, in the vast majority of my posts I quote that version, I believe it is the best. I do have some problems with the translation of certain passages, Rev 5:9-10 is one of those. Verse 9 KJV says” for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation” verse 10 says “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth". If you refer back to verse 8 one could arrive at the conclusion the elders were redeemed by his blood. If the elders are Old Testament saints, apostles or both no problem. My problem with this passage is as you so correctly stated “These 4 beasts are Cherubs .... they are of the top order of the angelic realm”. The way KJV is worded here we must conclude the 4 beasts are redeemed by his blood as well. That is my problem. The other translations which I believe are more correct in this case do not create this problem. It is not themselves to which they refer, they merely state that God has “purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.”

That was the point of my comparison.

I agree the Lord is eternal, but he did leave his heavenly realm to take on the body of a man, after his resurrection he said “touch me not for I have not yet ascended” It is that appearance or when he ascended in the presence of his apostles that I believe Rev 5 refers to. So bodily while he was on this earth both before and after his resurrection he was not in heaven.

It is for these reasons I believe the elders are created beings on some level with angels and Cherubs, part of the heavenly hosts.
 
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Straightshot

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The Lord's angelic Cherubs do not need to be redeemed, only humans do

So I will suggest to you that the Cherubs do not sing the song .... however, they do worship the Lord

It is the redeemed humans who sing

And this a bit mysterious to us, but know that the Lord is omnipresent in His universe and is every where at the same time and all of the time .... and He can be both God and human at the same time

He is God and can be His Son at the same time [John 14:8-9]

An awesome being, and there is none like Him

Even His 7 fold holy spirit is connected and omnipresent [Revelation 5:6]

Nothing is impossible for this Creator and maintainer of all things
 
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Riberra

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My response to the op :

we are not told the timing of exactly when the rapture will occur in revelation, however the 24 elders are mentioned in rev 4:4. They have crowns on their heads and are clothed in white garments. I believe that the 24 elders represent the church that is in heaven. I also believe that the book of revelation's format is in chronological order. Therefore one must presume a pre tribulation rapture.
Based on what are you presuming a pre-tribulation rapture ?Is it because that you believe that the 24 elders represent the church that is in heaven ?Where do you think that the souls of the millions of believers in Jesus have gone after their death since 2,000 years ? There is actually a great multitude of souls of those who died in Christ (believers )who are actually in Heaven and their numbers is growing every day.

Revelation 7:9-11
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
 
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Riberra

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Why do you think that the address to the Church of Philadelphia is limited to Revelation 3 verse 10 only ... ? Why is there verse 12 saying to the same Church of Philadelphia about overcoming:
"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God,"v12 ... overcoming what if as you believe they will not be there ????

Over coming is what you should be doing .... sticking to the truth RB

And if you do, the Lord will keep you from His coming wrath of the tribulation period

Are you letting some body steal your crown by your refutation of His promise?

And if alive at the time and you do find yourself in the tribulation ..... you are going to have a bad time

If so, make certain that you repent as the Lord has commanded [Revelation 3:9-15]
Stick to what is written in the Bible .
Clearly the Church of Philadelphia the archetype of His true ecclesias in the end time, will be there during the Tribulation and will have to overcome to have access to the promise mentioned in Rev 3:12.
There is no promise of an easy way out and a trip to Heaven before the Tribulation.You can dream of an easy way out as you like ...
Link:
We will not be there during the tribulation...a powerfull wishfull thinking. | Christian Forums

The hour of temptation that we will be keep from (falling )mentioned in Rev 3:10 is related to
.... how even the elect if it were possible, would be deceived (Matthew 24:24)

Revelation 3
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3 KJV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+3&version=KJV
 
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