Matthew 24:15-22 & Luke 21:20-24

My comment

The Lord's discourse does not change and His answers are directed to His early followers who were of Israel

And He speaks of the 70th week decreed for their nation still pending today .... He says nothing about 70 AD

His discourse includes events "all taken together" and there inclusions which have never taken place in the past

Matthew 24 and Luke 21:20-36 is directed to the nation of Israel only and for the time of the end of this present age

The preterist pulls the same slide of hand trick with these verses that is done with the unfulfilled portions of the visions of the Bible prophets by corrupting with metaphor and with false claims that the events scheduled have already happened

A reading of the same simply exposes the false teaching of the preterist

The following was a worksheet used by the members of my Church Life Group during a Bible Study.
Feel free to copy and use it if you like.

It shows the disciples asked Jesus 2 questions and He gave 2 answers in the Olivet Discourse.


Matthew Chapter 24:

In Matthew chapter 24, Christ gives an explanation to four of His disciples.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

1st Question: ________________________________________________

Christ has just told them the temple would be destroyed in the previous verse.



2nd Question: _______________________________________________

The Greek word “parousia” is used throughout the New Testament to describe His Second Coming.

………………………………...

Do New Testament and historical writings show that Jesus answered the first question within the first half of Matthew, chapter 24?

………………………………...

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Act 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:(Simon Magus was a deceiver. Confirmed by Jerome.)

………………………

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for allthese thingsmust come to pass, but the end is not yet.

During 66 AD the Roman 12th Legion under the command of Cestius Gallus surrounded the city of Jerusalem. For some unknown reason, he ordered his army to stop the seige. During the retreat the Romans were attacked by the Jews, who killed thousands of the Roman soldiers. (Josephus, War 2.19.7, 540) (Tacitus, The Histories V)

………………………

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

There was a devastating earthquake around 60-62 AD that destroyed much of Colossae, Laodicea, and Hierapolis. This was recorded by Tacitus in his writings as being during the 7th year of Nero.

………………………..

Mat 24:8 All thesearethe beginning of sorrows.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

The New Testament records the persecution of the early Christians, mainly by the Jews.

This is described specifically in Mark’s Gospel.

Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

The Apostle Paul confirms that he fulfilled this persecution.

Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

……………………….

Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Col_4:14 Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you.

2Ti_4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

1Jn_4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

……………………….



Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Was the Gospel preached into every nation in the modern world? No.

However, according to Paul it was preached into every nation of his known world.

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;



Luk 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Does this include Alaska and South America ???

………………………..

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

We know sometime before the final siege of 70 AD the early Christians left the city of Jerusalem. Did they heed the warning in Matthew 24?

A parallel study of the three Gospel accounts reveals the Abomination of Desolation.

During the time of Christ, the Jews celebrated Hanukka. He was well aware of the first occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the temple, when Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue of Zeus (He had previously claimed he was Zeus) in the temple and had a pig slaughtered on the altar, during 167 BC.

Hanukkah celebrates the cleansing and rededication of the temple which occurred three years after the abomination of desolation by Antiochus in 167 BC.

Therefore, Christ was predicting a second occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the Olivet Discourse.

Several events could be a possible desecration of the temple during 70 AD. The Roman standards were posted at the temple site. Sacrifices were made to Titus at the temple site. Also, the behavior of the zealots within the temple itself during the siege is regarded by many as a desecration of the temple.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh(near).
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luke’s account above clearly states that the desolation would be near the time that Jerusalem was surrounded by armies.

We know the early Christians did flee from Jerusalem before the final siege.

While He was being taken to the Cross, Jesus warned the women who were weeping for him about what was to come. During this warning He makes a reference similar to that found in Matthew 24:19, about nursing mothers. This warning is also specifically made to these women and their children.

During the siege of 70 AD some women ate their own children, due to the lack of food during the siege.

Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessedarethe barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

Almost all scholars agree that the following verse is a specific reference to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

What do we find in the last half of Matthew chapter 24?

_________________________________________________________

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summerisnigh:

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near,evenat the doors.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.



Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.



Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:41 Twowomen shall begrinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Based on the language and the context in verses 24:38-39, what happens to those taken in verses 24:40-41?

__________________________________________________________

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Did Christ give the disciples signs to look for, in His answer to the first question? _____

Explain your answer. ____________________________________________________



Did Christ give the disciples signs to look for in His answer to the second question? ____

Explain your answer. ____________________________________________________


.

You need to study your Bible alone and to stop reading materials that serve you current persuasion


Only one question, and one answer

Luke
21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

During the days of the 70th week decreed for Israel still pending .... in which there will be no temple of the Lord's on the mount

21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

The time will be rampant with false messianic movements

21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

Middle East warfare will inundate the region

21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

The signs and events during the 70th as written in Revelation's unfolding

21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

The pre-70th week experiences of His early followers of Israel

21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

They were protected to continue their mission even though persecuted

21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

This is the 70th week still pending in vs 21:20 .... and He did not tell them the dating [Acts 1:6-7], the time when the little horn of Daniel's visions will come to desolate [Daniel 9:27; 11:41]

21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

During the 70 week .... these things have never happened [Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-16]

21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

The Lord's vengeance upon the unbelieving world including Israel is still pending [Matthew 24:36-39; Jude 1:14-15; Revelation 3:10; 6:12-17]

21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

And Israel will be in the time of Jacob's trouble [Jeremiah 30]

21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

This invasion of the little horn will take place during Israel's time of trouble, during the 70th week [Psalms 83; Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 38; 39; Daniel 11:41; 12:1-7; Joel 3:9-11; Micah 5:5-6; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Matthew 24:15-16; Revelation 11:2; 12:3; 12:14]


The following events are all still pending the same and have never yet taken place:

21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; [Revelation 6:12-17]

21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

At the end of the tribulations of the 70th week [Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46; Revelation 1:7; 19:11-21]

21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

He speaks of Israel's redemption as a nation during the 70th week

21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

This observation of a fig tree tells that that summer is near

21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Those of Israel at the time will know that His restoration of Israel for His millennial kingdom is at hand

21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

He speaks of the Generation of Israel existing from the ending of the Noahic flood to the ending of the judgment of the tribulation period [Matthew 24:36-39]

21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

This changing of heavens and earth has never yet taken placed and still pending the ending of His future millennial kingdom upon the earth

21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

Again He speaks to those of Israel during the coming 70th week

21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth

He unprecedented judgment will come upon the entire earth .... there will be no warning [Revelation 3:10 and chapters 8 thru 19]

21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Again is He speaking to Israel in the tribulation to come [the future 70th week] and to the 1/3 that will turn to him be preserved as mortals to enter and populate His coming millennial kingdom upon the earth [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Ezekiel 36; 39; Micah 4; 5; Zechariah 14; Matthew 24:29-31]

Straightshot said:

You need to study your Bible alone and to stop reading materials that serve you current persuasion


Only one question, and one answer

Click to expand...

One of us has a reading comprehension problem and it is not me.



Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.


Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Question 1 ................................... Question 2 .......................................
Destruction of the temple............. Christ's Parousia (Second Coming)...........


This time, try counting the number of question marks in Matthew 24:3.

How many did you find?

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vinsight was right when she said "It shows the prophecy is not for the hearers then, but someday
people will need to able to read it and run/flee." (whoso readeth, let him understand)


The Day of the Lord has some striking similarities but Brian45 was right when he said "Mathew 24:15 is future and Luke 21:20 is past".

parousia70 said:

Please elaborate.

Both Matt 24 & Luke 21 are synoptic accounts of the same discourse, Given by the Same Jesus at the same moment to the same people.
Synoptic/parallel scriptures can not be interpreted to have polar opposite meanings.

COMPARE THIS:
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

TO THIS:
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;


It's the Same "when", it's the Same "desolation", it's the same "then" and it's the same time to "flee" from the same "Judea"

Click to expand...

Matt 24 & Luke 21 are not synoptic accounts of the same discourse. They were given by the Same Jesus but not at the same moment in time and not to the same people. Luke 21 was in the temple in the morning to a crowd of people, Matt 24 was in the evening of the same day with just a handful of His disciples on the mount called Olivet.

Matt 24 is all still to be fulfilled in the future from verse 3 to 51. Luke 21 started out the same but Jesus stopped at verse 12: "But before all this" and spoke about synagogues, prisons, kings and governors during His disciples time. Luke 21 turned into a "Day of the Lord" style prophecy which tends to lack the chronological order of apocalyptic prophecies. Did you notice that? Like Zephaniah 1 where the first part of the chapter is clearly talking about the final end time Day of the Lord, then the middle shifts back to ancient Judah and then the chapter concludes again with the final end time wrath of the Lord.

You are right in that: "Synoptic/parallel scriptures can not be interpreted to have polar opposite meanings", and they don't.

Matt 24:15 & Luke 21:20 are speaking to two different groups of Christians separated by close to two thousand years. They both have the exact same simple meaning which is: run for your life.


COMPARE LUKE 21:

• Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,

• and let those who are inside the city depart,

• and let not those who are out in the country enter it,

• for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

• Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!

• For there will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.

• They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

TO MATTHEW 24:

• then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

• Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house,

• and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.

• And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!

• Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.

• For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

• And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

See how very similar they are until you get to the last two points of each. One is speaking to a specific group of people in a localized region, the other is speaking to every human being on the whole planet during a tribulation that obviously has not occurred yet.

(whoso readeth, let him understand)

My comment

The Lord is speaking to believing members of the nation of Israel in both Matthew 24 and Luke 21:20-36 about Israel in the future time of Jacob's trouble .... the 70th week decreed, still pending as we speak

His focus is not on today's church, but to the nation of Israel in the Middle East at the time of the end of this present age

Straightshot said:

My comment

The Lord is speaking to believing members of the nation of Israel in both Matthew 24 and Luke 21:20-36 about Israel in the future time of Jacob's trouble .... the 70th week decreed, still pending as we speak

His focus is not on today's church, but to the nation of Israel in the Middle East at the time of the end of this present age

Click to expand...

Let me see if I get the Dispensational viewpoint correct here...


There is only one question mark in the following verse.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?



The city of Jerusalem was not destroyed and the people of the city killed with swords and lead away captive in 70 AD.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.



The time of Jacob's trouble was not during the Babylonian captivity.


Jer 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.




And the angel Gabriel was wrong about the 70 weeks, lasting for 70 weeks. He forgot to mention the gap in the prophecy.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.




And we are supposed to believe Dispensationalists are using a "literal" interpretation of scripture.

Are you serious???

.

BABerean2 said:

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Click to expand...

My comment:

BAB,

I remember that you always bring this one up. Have I got a link to an essay for you. I recommend down loading and saving the PDF in case they change web servers and for ease of reading.

The disciples didn't understand what they were asking. The Temple was the biggest man made thing that they had ever seen, they assumed it's destruction would be at the end of the world.

When Jesus sat down upon the mount of Olives, not even Lucifer understood what was about to take place. Did you ever wonder why the Devil would be so eager to kill Jesus if that was God's plan all along?

Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again (Luke 18:31-33)

This was clear enough. However, we also read in verse 34,

The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.

Why didn't the disciples understand? Was it because they couldn't break out of the paradigm of the eternal Messiah who cannot die? Or was it God himself who "hid" the meaning from them? We don't know. But if we study all of the similar disclosures Jesus made, we see sixteen passages where Christ told his disciples what he was going to do (although some are referring to the same discussion). The list is as follows: Mark 8:31*; 10:45*; 9:9,10,12*; 10:32-34; 9:31-32; Matthew 20:17-19*; 17:22,23; 16:21; Luke 9:22*; 9:44,45; 18:31-34; John 3:14*; 10:15-18,20; 12:32-34; 16:17-18,25. In each of the starred passages, it records the disciples reaction, and makes it plain that they did not understand what he was saying.

It seems they never did understand. Right up to the end of his ministry they were asking him, "So is this the time when you will reveal your kingdom?"

Even the question they asked at the Mount of Olives, "What will be the sign of your coming?" may be misleading to modern readers. It sounds to us like they now knew he would leave and come back. But the term "coming" may have meant a triumphal entry, or presentation of himself as king. It's entirely possible that they were still thinking that the coming might happen any day.

http://www.xenos.org/essays/mystery-hidden-aeons-past

"This time, try counting the number of question marks in Matthew 24:3.

How many did you find?"


Count them all day if you want .... there is only one answer

About the time of the end still pending .... the 70th week decreed

70 AD was not the time ....and not even in any Prophet's vision

Dave Watchman said:

My comment:

BAB,

I remember that you always bring this one up. Have I got a link to an essay for you. I recommend down loading and saving the PDF in case they change web servers and for ease of reading.

The disciples didn't understand what they were asking. The Temple was the biggest man made thing that they had ever seen, they assumed it's destruction would be at the end of the world.

When Jesus sat down upon the mount of Olives, not even Lucifer understood what was about to take place. Did you ever wonder why the Devil would be so eager to kill Jesus if that was God's plan all along?

Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again (Luke 18:31-33)

This was clear enough. However, we also read in verse 34,

The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.

Why didn't the disciples understand? Was it because they couldn't break out of the paradigm of the eternal Messiah who cannot die? Or was it God himself who "hid" the meaning from them? We don't know. But if we study all of the similar disclosures Jesus made, we see sixteen passages where Christ told his disciples what he was going to do (although some are referring to the same discussion). The list is as follows: Mark 8:31*; 10:45*; 9:9,10,12*; 10:32-34; 9:31-32; Matthew 20:17-19*; 17:22,23; 16:21; Luke 9:22*; 9:44,45; 18:31-34; John 3:14*; 10:15-18,20; 12:32-34; 16:17-18,25. In each of the starred passages, it records the disciples reaction, and makes it plain that they did not understand what he was saying.

It seems they never did understand. Right up to the end of his ministry they were asking him, "So is this the time when you will reveal your kingdom?"

Even the question they asked at the Mount of Olives, "What will be the sign of your coming?" may be misleading to modern readers. It sounds to us like they now knew he would leave and come back. But the term "coming" may have meant a triumphal entry, or presentation of himself as king. It's entirely possible that they were still thinking that the coming might happen any day.

http://www.xenos.org/essays/mystery-hidden-aeons-past

Click to expand...

The article was good overall, however it seems to say that the Gospel Paul preached was different than the one Peter preached on the day of Pentecost.
We have to remember that Paul did not become a Christian until several years after the crucifixion.
There is only one Gospel.
The Seed of the woman was revealed at Genesis 3:15. The entire Bible is about Jesus Christ.
He wrote it, according to John 1:1.
Nothing in the history of the universe is greater than the Church of Jesus Christ. It is not a parenthesis in God's Plan, as stated by some of the past professors at DTS.
It is the Plan.

Many aspects of the Gospel may have been a mystery to many in the Old Testament.
According to Romans 9:24-27, it was not a mystery to Hosea.

The disciples most certainly did not understand many things until the resurrection.
However, this does not mean that Christ did not speak the truth to them, knowing they would not understand it until much later.

Somehow, the early Christians knew to leave the city of Jerusalem, before the final siege of 70 AD.

I continue to bring up the fact that the disciples asked Jesus two questions, because it is written plainly in the text.
Some may continue to argue that Jesus only answered one question, because it fits their doctrine.

Some parts of the text are undeniable. When Mark's Gospel says they will be beaten in the synagogues and then Paul confirms that he fulfilled this in the book of Acts, it is clear that some are ignoring the text for only one reason.

That text does not agree with their doctrine.



Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

The Apostle Paul confirms that he fulfilled this persecution.

Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

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Straightshot said:

"This time, try counting the number of question marks in Matthew 24:3.

How many did you find?"


Count them all day if you want .... there is only one answer

About the time of the end still pending .... the 70th week decreed

70 AD was not the time ....and not even in any Prophet's vision

Click to expand...

Do you believe the people of Jerusalem will be killed with swords and led away captive into all nations in the future?


Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

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Do you believe the people of Jerusalem will be killed with swords and led away captive into all nations in the future?


No question about it

This the Muslims of the coming Caliphate will do .... they will kill in many ways like they are doing today [the Muslim "sword"] .... watch the preferred method of head cutting as we speak

Their prize target and capture will be Israel .... and they will put them on display for all the world to witness

The uprooting of Israel from the land is their objective, and to take it for themselves just like they are doing the same to indigenous populations as they roll thought the Middle East as we speak

Israel will be forced out of the land during the coming 70th week decreed by Satan's beast in the little horn of Daniel's visions .... and the Lord will come, gather the survivors from their scattering, and restore the kingdom to them [His coming millennial kingdom upon the earth]

This is why the Lord has returned Israel to the land today ....to subject them to the pressuring so that a remnant part will turn to Him

And those that do will be protected, gathered, and saved to enter and populate His millennial kingdom

Study the verse below and honestly tell me what is meant by NO FLESH being saved:

"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

I believe that this is a climax to the end of the world when the sixth trumpet has gone off and the devil and his army have managed to wipe out most of true Christian believers except a few elect who by the grace of God are whisked away to a safe place where the devil mounts a last offensive to wipe them of the face of the earth. At this point the earth at the sixth trumpet resembles an open graveyard of unburied corpses, where all bird going predators are feeding of their flesh.
The world moves to and fro and quakes continually and pitch black darkness covers the land by the thick column of clouds that form the canopy of a dying earth.

Joel 2 New International Version (NIV)
An Army of Locusts
2 Blow the trumpet in Zion;
sound the alarm on my holy hill.

Let all who live in the land tremble,
for the day of the Lord is coming.
It is close at hand—
2 a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and blackness.
Like dawn spreading across the mountains
a large and mighty army comes,
such as never was in ancient times
nor ever will be in ages to come.

3 Before them fire devours,
behind them a flame blazes.
Before them the land is like the garden of Eden, (Once before this locust event, the earth was once pretty like Eden)
behind them, a desert waste— (After this locust event, the earth resembles an open graveyard of corpses and destruction)
nothing escapes them.
4 They have the appearance of horses;
they gallop along like cavalry.
5 With a noise like that of chariots
they leap over the mountaintops,
like a crackling fire consuming stubble,
like a mighty army drawn up for battle.

6 At the sight of them, nations are in anguish;
every face turns pale.
7 They charge like warriors;
they scale walls like soldiers.
They all march in line,
not swerving from their course.
8 They do not jostle each other;
each marches straight ahead.
They plunge through defenses
without breaking ranks.
9 They rush upon the city;
they run along the wall.
They climb into the houses;
like thieves they enter through the windows.

10 Before them the earth shakes,
the heavens tremble,
the sun and moon are darkened,
and the stars no longer shine.
11 The Lord thunders
at the head of his army;
his forces are beyond number,
and mighty is the army that obeys his command.
The day of the Lord is great;
it is dreadful.
Who can endure it?

The brightness of the Lord's coming

Revelation 20:9
They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

These are the last remaining elect left and if the Lord didn't call it TIME NO LONGER by blowing the seventh trumpet then even these elect would perish.

Revelation 10:6
And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

"Study the verse below and honestly tell me what is meant by NO FLESH being saved:"


If the Lord does not come and rescue the remnant of Israel in time from the Muslim insurgence led by Satan's beast in the little horn of Daniel's visions .... all of Israel will be destroyed

But He will rescue and a believing remnant part will be saved

It is true that the entire world will experience massive human death during the Lord's judgment of the tribulation, but the verses that you present are directed to Israel alone

Straightshot said:

Do you believe the people of Jerusalem will be killed with swords and led away captive into all nations in the future?


No question about it

This the Muslims of the coming Caliphate will do .... they will kill in many ways like they are doing today [the Muslim "sword"] .... watch the preferred method of head cutting as we speak

Their prize target and capture will be Israel .... and they will put them on display for all the world to witness

The uprooting of Israel from the land is their objective, and to take it for themselves just like they are doing the same to indigenous populations as they roll thought the Middle East as we speak

Israel will be forced out of the land during the coming 70th week decreed by Satan's beast in the little horn of Daniel's visions .... and the Lord will come, gather the survivors from their scattering, and restore the kingdom to them [His coming millennial kingdom upon the earth]

This is why the Lord has returned Israel to the land today ....to subject them to the pressuring so that a remnant part will turn to Him

And those that do will be protected, gathered, and saved to enter and populate His millennial kingdom

Click to expand...

The Muslims will have a very tough time fulfilling your version of Luke 21:24, because the Israelis will be using rifles, tanks, and jets, instead of swords.

Those who bring a sword to a gunfight will find out the hard way.

Let us see what John Darby had to say about the verse below.


"...These were the days of vengeance on the Jews, who had crowned their rebellion by rejecting the Lord. Therefore Jerusalem should be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled, that is, the times destined to the sovereignty of the Gentile empires according to the counsel of God revealed in the prophecies of Daniel. This is the period in which we now live..."

If you are going to promote John Darby's doctrine, at least check to see what he said about it.

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"The Muslims will have a very tough time fulfilling your version of Luke 21:24, because the Israelis will be using rifles, tanks, and jets, instead of swords."


Well that is what you think .... weapons of war come in many forms regardless of how they are described in scripture

.... and here is a little lesson on warfare .... it is boots on the ground that occupy, 300 million vs 8 million [Daniel 11:41; Revelation 11:2]

Based upon what you just said .... you simply do not know what you are talking about

And I have told you before son .... I know what Darby taught .... I do not promote

.... it is you who tells this Darby hoax that you got from unregenerate men

And you need to know that if I didn't want to use your ranting to demonstrate the correct rendering of scripture for this forum I would totally ignore you

Straightshot said:

Not true ... this is the preterist's definition that you give.... and not the biblical view of the same

The world is currently experiencing the Lord's dispensation of grace which is coming to an end [Romans 11:25-36]

Then and only then will He turn His focus upon a returned remnant part of Israel to the land .... and many will turn to Him as Messiah and King during the 70th week decreed for them still pending [Daniel 9:24-27;Romans 11]

Click to expand...

If Grace comes to an end, how will the Jews gain salvation during your future 70th week?

Are they going to be saved by keeping the Law?

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Straightshot said:

"The Muslims will have a very tough time fulfilling your version of Luke 21:24, because the Israelis will be using rifles, tanks, and jets, instead of swords."


Well that is what you think .... weapons of war come in many forms regardless of how they are described in scripture

.... and here is a little lesson on warfare .... it is boots on the ground that occupy, 300 million vs 8 million [Daniel 11:41; Revelation 11:2]

Based upon what you just said .... you simply do not know what you are talking about

And I have told you before son .... I know what Darby taught .... I do not promote

.... it is you who tells this Darby hoax that you got from unregenerate men

And you need to know that if I didn't want to use your ranting to demonstrate the correct rendering of scripture for this forum I would totally ignore you

Click to expand...

I know the Israelis currently have the Neutron Weapon, which was developed by a physicist from the U.S.
(Dr. Sam Cohen, if my memory serves me correctly)

If pushed into a corner, they will use the weapons.
I cannot see much sword cutting going on in that scenario.

The greatest threat to them and to our nation today is from nukes.

But I know we will be out of here soon, because you said so.

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The Bible is clear in that the threat to the true church of Christ comes from the lamb like second beast who gives life to the first beast and causes all to worship him or else.
The second beast is not Islam, the second beast is lamb like, this means it poses as being Christ like and claims to be followers of Jesus. Instead their Jesus is the seventh king of the healed first beast who is non other than Lucifer pretending to be the earthly Messiah.
The Islamic state is just a pawn of the devil that is thrown in there to bring order out of chaos.

This is how communism through Lenin came to power as saviour after they brought the Russian people to their knees and they were made to beg for Lenin to give them a loaf of bread.
Then when Lenin came to power what is the first thing he perpetrated?

He tried to kill off Christianity and burn down all the churches.

Now think and reflect if a Jewish earthly Messiah came bringing order out of chaos. What would be the first thing that he would do?

Since the Jews who rejected the atoning sacrifice on the cross at Calvary, because they believe that this is the first coming of Messiah, then this devil aka Lucifer will re-institute temple worship under the Old Covenant laws whilst doing away completely with the daily sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins that was posted on the cross at Calvary.

Then he will deal with the true church just like Lenin dealt with it.

Don't wish for an earthly Messiah you may just get what the Russians begged for, but this time instead of Lenin and the burning of churches, you will get total annihilation by the hands of the beast of the bottomless pitt and his servants who put him there, who deceived the world into thinking they were Christian or lamb like.

"If pushed into a corner, they will use the weapons"

These kinds of WMDs will not be used in the Middle east .... there are many events that must take place during the coming 70th week decreed for Israel .... on the ground

However, it is possible that the little horn and his 10 kings will use them against those of other nations outside of the Middle East [Daniel 11:44; Revelation 17:16-18]