Do Baptists Believe They Are The Only True Religion?

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Winken

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I cannot believe the "discussion" in this thread. Shooting each other down is not where it's at, folks.
John 14:6. John 3:16-17, John 3:3, John 5:24, Romans 10:8-13.

We need no other argument, we need no other plea.
It is enough that Jesus died, and that He died for me.

Minus "religion," folks.
 
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dkin

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No, in fact (not to defend them) not all Catholics feel that way. There are some in every different denomination who feel that way. But let's not forget that the church does not have differences or denominations...that is a condition of fallen humanity, best left behind with the dead "old man", when one is born again of the spirit of God. In other words, there is indeed, only one true "church". "Religion" is another matter entirely.

For the sake of clarification...Catholics do believe the Catholic Church to be the "One, Holy and Apostolic Church". This we say at every mass when we recite The Nicene Creed. We believe the Catholic Church to have been instituted by Jesus Christ, containing the full truth as revealed to us by God. That said, we believe as stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that: "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."
 
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Sir, with all charity (which you didn't offer btw), I find your post to be not only innacurate, but insulting. If I presumed to tell you what you believed you would be offended as well I am sure. And I believe I would be in a better position to do so than are you as I was brought up in the Southern Baptist tradition. A faith that I still have a great fodness and high regard in my heart for. That said, I converted to the Catholic Church a number of years ago as I realized it is the one true and apostolic faith established by our Lord, Jesus Christ.

I'll try my best to move through your post step by step and offer up where I find your remarks to be in error or just simply insulting.

"We are not protestants" - there are two types of Christians...Protestants (non-Catholic) and Catholics. I won't spend a lot of time on this as I don't find it particularly important as to how you identify. Worth noting, that within Protestantism there are literally tens of thousands of denominations...not something our Lord desires for us.

"Pro homo" - this is simply offensive. While I as a Catholic do not support the "gay marriage" or the gay lifestyle, as Christians we should show love to all people..."hate the sin, not the sinner". We should follow Christ's man examples as he chose to put himself admist sinners. How can we ever hope to change hearts and minds if not by drawing people in through our love. Once we draw them in we have the opportunity to teach the truth to them. Our condemnation will only drive them away from the truth. I seem to recall something about splinters and logs in this regard.

"Baptism does not save anyone" - I would beg to differ as I know our Lord would as well. Jn 3:5 "Jesus answered, verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

"If you worship Mary as the Catholics do" - this is flat out untrue. It would be so refreshing to have someone outside of the Catholic faith simply ask a Catholic what they believe (although sadly, there are many Catholics who would have difficulty in answering this). That said, one could even pick up a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church as it outlines everything Catholics believe. No Catholic who understands their faith would ever say that we worship Mary. We do not. Mary is not divine. While we venerate the Mother of God, we only worship God (the triune God...Father, Son and Holy Spirit). I believe the misunderstandings around this stems from the different languages that we Catholics use versus those in the Protestant world. I believe to the Protestant the word "pray" is synonomous with the word "worship". When we use the word pray, we do not mean to worship. What we mean is to "speak to". When we pray to Mary, which we do (although not required of Catholics), we simply mean we are speaking to her. And yes, we pray to other Saints as well as we believe the Saints in heaven are also our brothers and sisters in Christ just as those who are living with us still in this world. This doctrine is referred to as the Communion of Saints. When you ask someone to pray for you, that is the same thing we are doing when we go to Mary or any other Saints. How much more effective the prayers for us from these holy men and women are as they have already won the prize and are now in the presence of God himself. And Mary is first among Saints. The greatest example of all as to how we should live our Christian life. And we know our Lord listens to his mother as evidenced in the story of the Wedding at Cana. This misunderstanding is one of many. To quote the venerable Fulton J. Sheen - "There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be."

"Infant baptism for one. No matter how they cut it they are saying you are bringing your child into the family of God and it's some kind of bond and yes , they will have to be confirmed later on but this is what saves them while they are waiting." - My post is getting lengthy I realize so I will try to keep this pithy. I can elaborate later and include more scripture quotations if you like (yes, I'm Catholic and I read scripture. I would actually credit the Baptist faith and my familiarity and love of Scripture with drawing me to the Catholic Church as it is through scripture that I found the truth of the Church). With regards to infant baptism...are you aware that the very earliest Christians baptized infants? Your sentence is difficult to understand, but if you are suggesting that baptism is sort of a hold over until you can really be saved through Confirmation, that is not what we believe. Baptism is the first means to and is necessary for salvation. Confirmation strengthens us in our faith and continues what Baptism started by maturing us in our faith and preparing us to follow through on the Great Commission to spread the Gospel. It is one of the Sacraments of Initiation. Baptism the first, Confirmation the second and then receiving the Eucharist (communion). Again, instead of putting forth what the Catholic Church believes, you might want to look into a copy of the Catechism first to make sure you know what the Church teaches. We do not believe Mary saves us. Only God has the power to do that.

"Lutherans believe in Consubstantiation. In other words, there is some mystical power in the Lord's supper (they, like the Catholics call it communion) and it has a mysterious action when taken. No, It is a memorial service to remember what Christ did for us and although it should be serious and somber, there will be no added apparitions or added theatrics to the service." - The Catholic understanding of what happens during the Eucharist (Communion) is slightly different than the Lutheran understanding. You are correct, Lutherans believe in Consubstantiation while Catholics believe in Transubstantiation. Without getting to far down in the weeks, the difference between the two words is subtle while what actually happens in a Lutheran service vs. what happens during the Catholic Mass is world's apart. Consubstantiation means that they believe when the minister consecrates the bread and wine that Christ becomes present along side of the bread and wine (Lutherans, please chime in if I got this wrong). Transubstatiation is the belief that when the Priest consecrates the host and wine that it actually becomes the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. While the accidents (the outward appearnce of the bread and wine) remain the same, the substance of them change as I previously indicated. This is indeed a great mystery and the human mind will never be capable of fully understanding, yet this is what we believe. You might refer to John Chapter 6...maybe start around v. 49 through the end of the chapter. Jesus is very clear when he repeats a number of times to eat his body and drink his blood. Even when questioned by his followers he doesn't start explaining in different terms, no he reiterates the same. As difficult as these words are for us to hear and understand in our time, the same was true then as those listening to him said "This is a hard saying; who can hear it?", and then began to leave, yet Jesus doesn't call them back and explain that he was merely speaking in symbols. Instead he asks his apostles "Will ye also go?"...when I became Catholic I made a decision to answer as Peter did..."Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life". Then of course there is the Eucharistic discourse. Again, the belief in the Eucharist is not something Catholics made up...this was practiced in obedience to Christ from the very beginnings of Christianity.

"There must be a book of stupid ideas out there" - again this is just sort of insulting. Whether it is my faith you are insulting or someone else's. I always presume people are sincere in their beliefs and mocking them doesn't seem to me to be a great way to build bridges between people of different faiths. Seems like approaching folks in love and charity is a better strategy.

"I would say that you might not be saved." - Judge much? Judging behaviors is one thing, but I think I'll leave the judgement of one's soul to God alone.

Hopefully I've cleared up some misunderstandings you have about the Catholic Faith. And maybe you'll consider the way you put forth your own beliefs if what you are trying to do is evangelize and win souls for the Lord.

Blessings,

Dave
I think most Baptists, if not all, will always have a problem with praying to someone other than Jesus. He gave us the Holy Spirit as our intercessor. I see no scripture that supports praying to the dead.
 
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dkin

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I think most Baptists, if not all, will always have a problem with praying to someone other than Jesus. He gave us the Holy Spirit as our intercessor. I see no scripture that supports praying to the dead.

I was a Baptist for many years and certainly would not have prayed to anyone other than Jesus until I came to a different understanding. But I wouldn't say "always will have a problem with it" as I certainly don't now after my conversion, nor do the other Baptists and various Protestants that I know who have also come into full communion with the Church.

Again, to pray is to request. Think of the word usage in old English I.e., "I pray you will Be careful" or in law "The defense prays the court will...". It is no different in the way we use the word. Yes, we pray to God when we are asking for something and so we pray to saints to ask them to intercede on our behalf. Do you ever ask others to pray for you? This is the same thing we are doing when we ask Mary or other saints to pray for us.

When I have a bit more time I'll find some scripture for you that might be helpful. I would also point out that the ancient Jews prayed to and for the dead.
 
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FreeinChrist

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First off, let me tell you that I am surprised that this forum doesn't have "Reformed" as a denomination to register with in the drop-down menu. I had to register without specifying a denomination. It is as if we, the Reformed, didn't exist. And apparently, even the word "Reformed" is so unknown to everyone, that I was able to register with it as my username!
http://www.christianforums.com/forums/semper-reformanda.366/
http://www.christianforums.com/forums/semper-reformanda.366/

This is a congregational forum for Reformed members:
Semper Reformanda

We have quite a few Reformed Members. I am surprised that name was available.
 
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I was a Baptist for many years and certainly would not have prayed to anyone other than Jesus until I came to a different understanding. But I wouldn't say "always will have a problem with it" as I certainly don't now after my conversion, nor do the other Baptists and various Protestants that I know who have also come into full communion with the Church.

Again, to pray is to request. Think of the word usage in old English I.e., "I pray you will Be careful" or in law "The defense prays the court will...". It is no different in the way we use the word. Yes, we pray to God when we are asking for something and so we pray to saints to ask them to intercede on our behalf. Do you ever ask others to pray for you? This is the same thing we are doing when we ask Mary or other saints to pray for us.

When I have a bit more time I'll find some scripture for you that might be helpful. I would also point out that the ancient Jews prayed to and for the dead.
Asking someone here to pray for you and making attempts to speak to (forgiven) sinners who have passed on is not quite the same. At best it sets a dangerous precedent.

As an example, a friend of my mother's was in training to be a nun. She was instructed during her training that it would be good for her to pray to her dead father (presumed to be a Christian). She did pray to him, felt what she could only describe as a " demonic presence," and promptly left her training.

Whether or not the teachings of the Catholic Church condone the way she was being taught, it really is the next logical extension. If we can pray to one human who accepted Jesus, why can't we pray to them all?

I'm a bit curious to see what scripture can be used to support it, but I can't imagine it is anything but misinterpreted or taken out of context.

Prayer and worship go hand-in-hand. I will continue praying to the only one who is perfect.
 
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FreeinChrist

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MOD HAT

Folks, again, you cannot teach against Baptist beliefs in this particular congregational forum or promote the views of other churches that conflict with Baptist views.
 
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4x4toy

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Jesus instructed us in how we should pray , using the Lord's Prayer you can break it down and pray for hours if you want ... The only place I remember in the OT concerning seeking help from the dead was King Saul seeking Samuel through the witch of Endor , the answer from Samuels spirit was basically "leave me alone"
 
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Jesus instructed us in how we should pray , using the Lord's Prayer you can break it down and pray for hours if you want ... The only place I remember in the OT concerning seeking help from the dead was King Saul seeking Samuel through the witch of Endor , the answer from Samuels spirit was basically "leave me alone"
I'm so glad you said that! Maybe I'm a bit irreverent, but I find that story hilarious. I've had people try to tell me that the bible doesn't say it's not okay to mess with psychics/fortune tellers/whatever, and I always come back at them with something to the effect of, " I dunno. King Saul went to a medium to speak to a dead prophet. God let the prophet talk to him, and the prophet rather chewed Saul out for it."
 
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4x4toy

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I'm so glad you said that! Maybe I'm a bit irreverent, but I find that story hilarious. I've had people try to tell me that the bible doesn't say it's not okay to mess with psychics/fortune tellers/whatever, and I always come back at them with something to the effect of, " I dunno. King Saul went to a medium to speak to a dead prophet. God let the prophet talk to him, and the prophet rather chewed Saul out for it."

I know right .. Many things have struck me as funny too .. I've imagined the disciples sitting around a fire after Peter walked on water then began to sink before Jesus reached out for him .. I can see John saying "no wonder Jesus named you rock Simon because you sure sank like one" .. Then all of them breaking out in laughter ..
 
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I know right .. Many things have struck me as funny too .. I've imagined the disciples sitting around a fire after Peter walked on water then began to sink before Jesus reached out for him .. I can see John saying "no wonder Jesus named you rock Simon because you sure sank like one" .. Then all of them breaking out in laughter ..
Peter, James, and John were troublemakers :p
 
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dkin

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MOD HAT

Folks, again, you cannot teach against Baptist beliefs in this particular congregational forum or promote the views of other churches that conflict with Baptist views.
I'm not sure if your comments are referring to my posts, but if so I'm curious if it is allowed to respond to misrepresentations and innacuracies of other faiths that are made in the course of discussion on this forum. If others are not free to defend their own faith when it is misrepresented then this forum becomes a platform to bash faiths other than the one being specifically discussed.
 
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FreeinChrist

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I was referring to quite a few posts. It is not okay to promote the beliefs of beliefs that contradict Baptist beliefs in this congregational forum. The same goes with all the congregational forums.
 
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dkin

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Jesus instructed us in how we should pray , using the Lord's Prayer you can break it down and pray for hours if you want ... The only place I remember in the OT concerning seeking help from the dead was King Saul seeking Samuel through the witch of Endor , the answer from Samuels spirit was basically "leave me alone"

I believe we have been forbidden to seek information from the dead as the Pagans did, but that is not what we are doing when we are simply asking the Saints to pray for us. They too are part the same body of Christ as we are. Christ spoke with the dead during the Transfiguration. And we are told in Revelation that the Saints offer up prayers to God.
 
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dkin

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I was referring to quite a few posts. It is not okay to promote the beliefs of beliefs that contradict Baptist beliefs in this congregational forum. The same goes with all the congregational forums.
So no defending of your own faith if it is being misrepresented? Just want to be clear.
 
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graphuto

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Jesus instructed us in how we should pray , using the Lord's Prayer you can break it down and pray for hours if you want ... The only place I remember in the OT concerning seeking help from the dead was King Saul seeking Samuel through the witch of Endor , the answer from Samuels spirit was basically "leave me alone"

I hope you aren't suggesting vain repetition and babbling, as the heathen do.
Jesus told us how to pray, specifically telling us to avoid vain repetition so what do people do?

Repeat the Lord's prayer over and over and over while counting beads.
That isn't praying.
 
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