Are Mormons and JWs Christians?

Are Mormons or JWs Christians?


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Hammster

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Threat? No. I see it as usurping my faith in an attempt to trick Jews into thinking they are still within Judaism when they have left and cut themselves off from the community.
While I disagree with your view, I can certainly understand it.
 
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TheBarrd

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Persecute much? Ironic. what makes CF think they have any authority to make a ruling like this anyway? Mormons couldn't be anything but Christians. It's in the name for Christ's sake. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The only major difference between them and any other Christian church is the book of Mormon, and Jesus was in that book too. Appeared to the nephites after he was resurrected.

As far as i can tell, it's a violation of your own rules to make such a ruling. Hardly a Christian thing to do if you ask me.

You have many beliefs that contradict traditional Christianity.
For instance, you believe that God was once a man who was born on another planet...an alien...who was granted his godhood...'exalted'...by the god of that world, who was also born on some other world and similarly 'exalted'....and this pattern repeats ad infinitum, giving an infinite number of gods...
This belief alone puts you outside the pale of Christianity.
In fact, I'm not sure it isn't blasphemy.
 
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RDKatz

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No!

JW's are Arians, and Mormons have far much more that (theologically) is deeply un-Christian [i.e. denial of the trinity, the LDS plan of salvation, the eternal nature of Christ, &c.].

How can you say someone or something is un-Christian when you cannot even provide a valid scriptural definition of Christian.

I do not know much about Arians but the little I do know sounds like they are on the right track. They are much closer to the Truth than Nicene.

The concept of the Trinity is obviously false on the face of it. It is certainly un-scriptural.

The Plan of Salvation makes a lot more sense than anything I have ever heard of by any 'Christian'.

I am not sure what problem you have with the Eternal nature of Christ.
 
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Hammster

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Persecute much? Ironic. what makes CF think they have any authority to make a ruling like this anyway? Mormons couldn't be anything but Christians. It's in the name for Christ's sake. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The only major difference between them and any other Christian church is the book of Mormon, and Jesus was in that book too. Appeared to the nephites after he was resurrected.

As far as i can tell, it's a violation of your own rules to make such a ruling. Hardly a Christian thing to do if you ask me.
Their view of Jesus is radically different from orthodox Christianity.

Christianity sees Christ as the uncreated Creator. Mormons see their Jesus as a spirit brother of Satan. So if the foundation is different, then they can in no way be similar.
 
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RDKatz

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You have many beliefs that contradict traditional Christianity.
For instance, you believe that God was once a man who was born on another planet...an alien...who was granted his godhood...'exalted'...by the god of that world, who was also born on some other world and similarly 'exalted'....and this pattern repeats ad infinitum, giving an infinite number of gods...
This belief alone puts you outside the pale of Christianity.
In fact, I'm not sure it isn't blasphemy.
Just because our beliefs contradict traditional Christianity does not make them wrong. It is very possible that those traditional Christian Beliefs are based upon the wisdom of man rather than from God.
 
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Hammster

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Let's say there was a group of left-handed people. I, being right-handed, want to join. They ask me if I'm left-handed. I say no., but I have a left hand. They reject me. So I start a group of left-handed people who are right-handed. After I gain popularity, I insist that the original left-handed group recognize me as left-handed.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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Let's say there was a group of left-handed people. I, being right-handed, want to join. They ask me if I'm left-handed. I say no., but I have a left hand. They reject me. So I start a group of left-handed people who are right-handed. After I gain popularity, I insist that the original left-handed group recognize me as left-handed.

And by what authority does the group of left-handed people have the right to define "left-handed"??? If you have a left hand, you are left-handed! By WHAT AUTHORITY?
 
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ViaCrucis

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How can you say someone or something is un-Christian when you cannot even provide a valid scriptural definition of Christian.

This presumes a Bible-onlyist* methodology. Bible-onlyism is a difficult methodology to maintain since by definition it requires explicit statements of Scripture in order to validate any point of theology or practice; the problem is that Scripture itself doesn't:

A) Mention a Bible-onlyist methodology and
B) The very nature of the Canon of Scripture is the result of Christian Tradition. A product of what is, fundamentally, an apostate church in the minds of many. It therefore is somewhat amusing to those of us who confess the historic catholic and orthodox faith that those who are most antagonistic against said historic catholic faith use what is, fundamentally, a catholic collection of Scriptures. Whether one uses a Protestant, Roman Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox Bible it is, in essence, a catholic Bible.

I do not know much about Arians but the little I do know sounds like they are on the right track. They are much closer to the Truth than Nicene.

Arius and the Arians believed there were two Gods. The Father who was uncreated, and the Son who was created. It is the Son who is the Creator of the heavens and the earth, the intermediary between the Father and creation; functioning similarly to the Demiurge in Platonic thought.

A common misconception about the Arians in modern times is that they were Unitarians, or that they believed Jesus to be only a human. They were neither, as the Creed of Ulfilias, an Arian bishop, attests:

"I, Ulfila, bishop and confessor, have always so believed, and in this, the one true faith, I make the journey to my Lord; I believe in one God the Father, the only unbegotten and invisible, and in his only-begotten son, our Lord and God, the designer and maker of all creation, having none other like him (so that one alone among all beings is God the Father, who is also the God of our God); and in one Holy Spirit, the illuminating and sanctifying power, as Christ said after his resurrection to his apostles: "And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be clothed with power from on high" and again "But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Ghost is come upon you"; being neither God nor our God, but the minister of Christ ... subject and obedient in all things to the Son; and the Son, subject and obedient in all things to God who is his Father ... (whom) he ordained in the Holy Spirit through his Christ"

The ellipses the fragmentary nature of the surviving text.

The Arian teaching was that there was God (the Father) and God (the Son), God the Father created God the Son, and God the Son is "Lord and God, the designer and maker of all creation".

The controversy which resulted in Nicea was never about whether Jesus was God or not (all parties involved believed Jesus was God) but what was meant in calling Jesus God, the maker of all things; the Creed answers by saying He is homoousious, of the same substance, with the Father and therefore not a separate God from God the Father, and thus eternal, not created. He is, in the words of the Creed "God of God, Light of Light", "begotten, not made", "begotten before all ages". In the original Symbol of 325 the Creed asserts the important points being made, by denying those who would say that "there was a time when the Son was not". In the Symbol of 381 the anathemas are removed, but a more robust statement on the Holy Spirit is made in response to the Macedonians or Pneumatomachai--"those who war against the Spirit".

-CryptoLutheran

*Bible-onlyism as distinct from the historic Protestant concept of Sola Scriptura or Verbum Solum (Scripture alone and Word alone respectively) which state that Scripture exists as the final court of appeal, the norming norm, etc. Scripture Alone isn't Bible-onlyism, as Scripture alone does not say that there are is no authority or loci of theological importance outside of Scripture, but includes and assumes the importance of the Creeds and Confessions of the Church.
 
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Oswaldo Carvalho

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Same as everybody else.
If they are born again (Rom 10:9) they are a Christian.
However that is not a belief of either organization.
I think your opinion was accurate. The new birth is an evidence of a real christian.
If a Mormon believes in Joseph Smith more than in Jesus Christ he can not be considered a Christian. As for JW, they do not honor the Son of God as the Father himself does, then they can not be considered Christians. Greetings from Brasil...
 
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Architeuthus

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The concept of the Trinity is obviously false on the face of it. It is certainly un-scriptural.

Well, no, it isn't. See the Scripture references in the Creed in our rules.

And why are you coming to a Christian Internet forum to spout this kind of stuff, anyway?
 
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kiwimac

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Well, no, it isn't. See the Scripture references in the Creed in our rules.

And why are you coming to a Christian Internet forum to spout this kind of stuff, anyway?

This IS a discussion board, no? If so, why not?
 
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RDKatz

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This presumes a Bible-onlyist* methodology. Bible-onlyism is a difficult methodology to maintain since by definition it requires explicit statements of Scripture in order to validate any point of theology or practice; the problem is that Scripture itself doesn't:

A) Mention a Bible-onlyist methodology and
B) The very nature of the Canon of Scripture is the result of Christian Tradition. A product of what is, fundamentally, an apostate church in the minds of many. It therefore is somewhat amusing to those of us who confess the historic catholic and orthodox faith that those who are most antagonistic against said historic catholic faith use what is, fundamentally, a catholic collection of Scriptures. Whether one uses a Protestant, Roman Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox Bible it is, in essence, a catholic Bible.



Arius and the Arians believed there were two Gods. The Father who was uncreated, and the Son who was created. It is the Son who is the Creator of the heavens and the earth, the intermediary between the Father and creation; functioning similarly to the Demiurge in Platonic thought.

A common misconception about the Arians in modern times is that they were Unitarians, or that they believed Jesus to be only a human. They were neither, as the Creed of Ulfilias, an Arian bishop, attests:

"I, Ulfila, bishop and confessor, have always so believed, and in this, the one true faith, I make the journey to my Lord; I believe in one God the Father, the only unbegotten and invisible, and in his only-begotten son, our Lord and God, the designer and maker of all creation, having none other like him (so that one alone among all beings is God the Father, who is also the God of our God); and in one Holy Spirit, the illuminating and sanctifying power, as Christ said after his resurrection to his apostles: "And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be clothed with power from on high" and again "But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Ghost is come upon you"; being neither God nor our God, but the minister of Christ ... subject and obedient in all things to the Son; and the Son, subject and obedient in all things to God who is his Father ... (whom) he ordained in the Holy Spirit through his Christ"

The ellipses the fragmentary nature of the surviving text.

The Arian teaching was that there was God (the Father) and God (the Son), God the Father created God the Son, and God the Son is "Lord and God, the designer and maker of all creation".

The controversy which resulted in Nicea was never about whether Jesus was God or not (all parties involved believed Jesus was God) but what was meant in calling Jesus God, the maker of all things; the Creed answers by saying He is homoousious, of the same substance, with the Father and therefore not a separate God from God the Father, and thus eternal, not created. He is, in the words of the Creed "God of God, Light of Light", "begotten, not made", "begotten before all ages". In the original Symbol of 325 the Creed asserts the important points being made, by denying those who would say that "there was a time when the Son was not". In the Symbol of 381 the anathemas are removed, but a more robust statement on the Holy Spirit is made in response to the Macedonians or Pneumatomachai--"those who war against the Spirit".

-CryptoLutheran

*Bible-onlyism as distinct from the historic Protestant concept of Sola Scriptura or Verbum Solum (Scripture alone and Word alone respectively) which state that Scripture exists as the final court of appeal, the norming norm, etc. Scripture Alone isn't Bible-onlyism, as Scripture alone does not say that there are is no authority or loci of theological importance outside of Scripture, but includes and assumes the importance of the Creeds and Confessions of the Church.

You are talking a bit over my head but if I get your jist:

The Bible does not claim to be the Be all and End all of Scripture. It is obviously not. The Bible did not exist when the Prophets wrote the various books. Man decided what books to include and which to exclude from the Bible. The Bible refers to books that are not found in the Bible. Sometimes it tells us to look to these books for verification.

From what you describe of Arian, it sounds like they were on the right track. The Bible clearly shows at least two separate and distinct Gods. The concept of three Gods in one is pure heresy. Thus the Trinity concept is false.
 
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Architeuthus

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This IS a discussion board, no? If so, why not?

Our rules say "Those who do not adhere to the Statement of Faith are welcome as members and participants in discussions, but you are required to respect these beliefs, even if you do not share them" and "Promoting or proselytizing religious beliefs or religions ... other than Christianity is not allowed. For the purpose of these rules, Christianity is defined by Christian Forums' Statement of Faith."

That Statement of Faith is, of course, the Nicene Creed.
 
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SaintJoeNow

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There has been a lot of confusion since CF made it's ruling that Mormons and JWs are not valid Christian faiths.
There has been anger and hurt feelings...and accusations flung back and forth.
Many of us feel that this decision was right and proper. There are basic tenets of Christianity that simply may not be compromised.
Many others feel that the decision was unfair. They feel that, as long as someone believes in Jesus he or she is a Christian, regardless what other strange doctrines he/she might hold.
Wdo you think?
JW's and Mormons believe Jesus is not God. They are anti-Christian, the same as atheists and Muslims.
 
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SaintJoeNow

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But it codified long-existing orthodox belief.

And the history doesn't really matter; it's our Statement of Faith, and it would be even if the site owner had written it yesterday.

I would not be respectful of Pagan beliefs.... I tell them directly that they are rejecting God's offer of salvation from the eternal torments of Hell if they are rejecting Jesus as God who died for their sins and rose bodily from the dead offering them forgiveness if they will repent and believe on Him and receive Him in reality as He is, God the only Savior. Pagans are in imminent danger of eternal torment in Hell and when I tell them, it might be the last chance they get to be reminded of God's offer to save them before it is forever too late.



Not true.



It had nothing to do with "the power of the Church."



Also not true; and the Council of Nicaea did not discuss the canon of Scripture, anyway.



Also not true (and the Junia story is a complex one -- for one thing, the original Greek is ambiguous as to gender; for another, it has been debated whether "noteworthy in the eyes of the apostles" or "outstanding among the apostles" is a better translation).



There were no such writings.



It's primarily a forum for Christians. Hence the name.

I don't think "you are required to respect these beliefs, even if you do not share them" is too much to ask. If I was visiting a Pagan internet forum I'd question, but I'd be respectful.

The CWR-specific rules say "The Christianity and World Religion forum gives Christians and non-Christians the opportunity to come together to better understand and learn about different religions. CWR is also a place where Christians and non-Christians can socialize with one another and develop friendships based on mutual respect. ... Please remember that CF is first and foremost a Christian forum and therefore the blasphemy and promotion and proselytizing rules will be strictly enforced. There will be no disrespect shown to Christianity, nor will there be any attempt to discredit or disprove Christianity."
 
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TheBarrd

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Just because our beliefs contradict traditional Christianity does not make them wrong. It is very possible that those traditional Christian Beliefs are based upon the wisdom of man rather than from God.

Because your beliefs contradict traditional Christianity makes them not a part of traditional Christianity. It really is that simple.
 
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