Introspection about Nagging and Criticism

mkgal1

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There's no doubt that women (and men) have these expectations (this author is one of them---and there're articles every day just like this). I agree that just because it's common (both sides of it--boys will be boys and girls will be girls) doesn't mean it's right (not that you said that in those exact words---but I'm getting the same concept from your post). I just think it's simpler (and less confusing) to just speak about unhealthy behavior w/o bringing gender into it. It doesn't matter who is misbehaving---it ALL damages relationships.
 
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LinkH

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One other thing - the husband is displaying passive-aggressive behaviors that are just as damaging to communication and to marriages. I have several people in my life who engage in p/a behaviors, including my boss, and it drives me crazy. I'm in favor of direct, open discussion and honesty. Also perhaps if the guy after how many years managed to remember not to mix his laundry up, perhaps that would help? That is strictly infantile behavior which begs for a wife to act like a mom.

How was his behavior passive-aggressive. What I was thinking was that the man in the article, instead of sitting around listening to that stuff, should have stood up for himself and refused to the barrage of criticism and insisted she stop. But what if he'd done that over and over again, and just decided to avoid conflict? I didn't get the impression that he was always putting socks in the wash. I got the impression that she harped on him for any little thing like that, so he reacted. Still, he should have been bold about it.

If you never buy hamburger meat, you won't think to get the low-fat percent. I'd prefer lean mean, but the fat does cook out, especially if you grill.

I wonder why you are sticking up for the critical wife in this story. I don't see how she has any excuse, and she's admitted it in the article. If the article were about a husband belittling his wife, would you stick up for him?
 
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LinkH

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This article had the potential to be an informative and introspective piece......BUT there were so many subtle implications (and NOT so subtle implications) that it got ruined, IMO.

For one thing: what's the need to assign specific words for behavior to one gender that *both* genders may exhibit (like "nagging" and "harping")? Why not use words like "ungracious" and "critical" that may apply to everyone?

Another thing: She wrote that she doesn't see this behavior as a "typical male characteristic". Well....that's because of how that word (nagging) is often used--we perceive it as "looking" a certain way. That's another problem with the use of those words.

Yet another issue: She assigned this behavior to "too many women" and then went on using the "we" pronoun in her sentences. She started off as sharing her insight (which *could* be helpful) but then it turned into a lecture (one that *both* genders could hear & apply....but she already dismissed the idea by that point that some men might need to hear it).

So....overall: a possible good article was destroyed by the gender divide (again) and a female author's attempt to be a "cool girl".


If a man treats his wife like this, it's not called 'nagging.' People call it 'bullying.'

But I think she's own track. At least in the US, this sort of thing seems a lot more common of a problem with wives, at least in my experience. I agree with Avniel. It's okay for a woman to write about problems that are more common for wives. There is such a thing as gender and men and women are different.

And there are men who are really critical and bully their wives like that, and they might benefit from the article and thinking about these sorts of things themselves.

The intended audience is female, but I thought it was a good article, so I shared it.
 
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Avniel

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There's no doubt that women (and men) have these expectations (this author is one of them---and there're articles every day just like this). I agree that just because it's common (both sides of it--boys will be boys and girls will be girls) doesn't mean it's right (not that you said that in those exact words---but I'm getting the same concept from your post). I just think it's simpler (and less confusing) to just speak about unhealthy behavior w/o bringing gender into it. It doesn't matter who is misbehaving---it ALL damages relationships.
No I don't believe I am saying that this is what all women do. I'm saying you have a group of American women that lack a certain exposure and in order to make up for that exposure they adapt and fall into social norms. I don't think we can reject the fact that these are social norms and are considered acceptable for certain genders. I think to ignore the reality that this is expected from women and women themselves fall into the trap of social norms needs to be addressed.

I think that would be dishonest and not truthful. The reality is America is a country that divides people based on gender, color and sexual orientation. In these groups there are distinct cultural expectations that are projected and accepted by those that are small minded enough.

Not to bring up race but I studied poli sci at an HBCU so it's an easy example. If we look at the black community we find that more black men are in college than in jail. However when we go to certain communities that aren't aware prison has become some what normalized. Even though there are more blacks doing good works there are those that believe going to jail is part of being a black man. Those men more then likely will end up in jail and they are so blinded by societies projections they participate in what they believe is normal.

If you go to Jamaica where it is believed all men are cheaters and a common saying is "man n man ah dawg" you will typically find a good number of men willing to cheat. In order to address it one must understand that society sees this as ok.
 
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beaverpond

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I too read that article yesterday and read it as one woman towards other women. However, I also took a few moments to gaze upon it as to how I treat my own wife as I am the one who does most of the shopping, spends most of the time with the kids, does most of the laundry, we share in the cooking and cleaning. So I started looking at so many of the examples that she shared and said to myself that I remember when my wife backed into the railing scratching up the car...yup I went off the deep end and she no longer parks on that side of the garage. But that was really the only one. I don't really get worked up about the other stuff.

However, I let her read the story and she reflected upon it and she looked at her own personal attitude and how often she yells at me for no apparent reason. I told her that when she lets it out, it has nothing to do with what happened at home usually, it usually had something to do with work and I just let it roll off my back. No big deal. She has a stressful job and I know that and sometimes she just needs to vent. I don't do that to her, I usually go for a long walk or I go to my parents house.

But when we read this story there was one couple that fits this article to a "T". Her parents...her mother orders her father around like he is her own personal slave and treats him like dirt. Why he does not say anything or puts up with it we don't know. Everything from the way he does laundry, to cooking, to cleaning, to driving, you name it.

She was with me once and was criticizing me for my driving...driving to fast, driving to slow, driving to much towards the center, driving to much towards the right, didn't like the way the truck rode, thought it sat too high, didn't like the way it rode with the cruise on. This is a GMC 1500 with a 6.0 V8...so we are talking some serious horsepower under the hood of this truck. Finally I could not take it anymore, I pulled over and said "walkin' ain't crowded, get out" She just looked at me and said "what". I said "I can't take it anymore and I won't. All you have done is criticize my driving, my truck, how high it sits, how fast I am driving, how it handles, how it rides. Well you know what, I did not ask you to help pay for it, I did not buy it for your comfort, I bought it for my comfort, so if you don't want to keep your mouth shut about the way it rides then start walking" After telling our Pastor about this and what happened with my mother-in-law he told me that this probably the first time that anybody has stood up to her. Mind you she was quiet the rest of the way home and she has never ridden in my truck since. Also it sits no higher than the average 4wd pickup from the factory. I also was not speeding as I would set the cruise to the speed limit or really close to it, unless it was under 25mph.

I read that article and the one thing that caught me was how he had the look on his face that her son would have when she scolded him. That aha moment of treating her husband like a child. This is her life partner not her child and should be treated as such.

So many women marry a man thinking they can change him to their way, but men think the same thing...I can change her to my way. I am guilty of that and will admit to it. I had to because my wife was a lousy cook and she would admit to it when we first were married and if we were to survive, I had to change her cooking methods and her old ways from what her mother taught her and teach her the right ways...no more short cuts, we are going to do things the right way and have the proper ingredients or we will not make it, no substitutions for what might work. Her mother would do things like if she did not have milk would use powdered milk instead or if she did not have sugar would use honey or if did not have baking soda would use baking powder. I am sure you see some serious problems with these ideas. She would also make her own pasta sauce using only tomatoes with no spices...yuk. First time my in-laws showed up for a meal we had a huge lasagna. My father-in-law had four servings. My mother-in-law was insulted because he ate so much of mine and his response was the the difference between your lasagna and his is that his lasagna actually tastes like lasagna. Don't envy that ride home. This is when she actually did the cooking and cleaning because he was still working. Now that he is retired she treats him like a slave.
 
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WolfGate

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There's no doubt that women (and men) have these expectations (this author is one of them---and there're articles every day just like this). I agree that just because it's common (both sides of it--boys will be boys and girls will be girls) doesn't mean it's right (not that you said that in those exact words---but I'm getting the same concept from your post). I just think it's simpler (and less confusing) to just speak about unhealthy behavior w/o bringing gender into it. It doesn't matter who is misbehaving---it ALL damages relationships.

mkgal1 - I get your point that overall unhealthy behavior should be addressed, regardless of gender. Absolutely a correct point, without doubt.

The challenge comes when a stereotype that an author is arguing against is gender specific. Trying to treat the issue without addressing the gender specific stereotype dilutes the message and lessens the impact to her very audience - those who have bought into the stereotype as acceptable behavior (and isn't that one of the biggest dangers of stereotypes?)

She did cover the base by acknowledging that not all women fit the stereotype and some men would behave the same.

However, in the context of an audience targeted article (women who were accepting of that stereotype as OK), her tactic is directed and effective - acknowledging that she herself had fallen into believing her behavior was acceptable because it fit the stereotype and then showing why she was wrong. Much more powerful for other women like herself than a genderless article on not being controlling and abusive.

It would be a mistake to assume that since this was a targeted article that she doesn't care about or believe that the root of control and abuse crossed gender, race, etc. That sin should be addressed wherever it resides, and based on her comments covering that I think she agrees. But this article was not aimed at those other targets - rather this specific audience and stereotype. Nothing wrong with that. We're also seeing more and more being written to help men learn to break past their stereotypes as well concerning treating women like cattle, or servants, etc.
 
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Avniel

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Pardon? Could you maybe re-phrase that, Avniel?
Ok it is my belief that this behavior is acceptable and expected. Therefore women that live in cultures where it is ok to treat men as servants will defend these actions. It's not right no matter what gender does it.

There is no difference from this behavior and a man that calls a woman outside of her name. You rarely find men that will openly admit and support men using abusive behaviors towards women, in said culture.

However you will find as we do on this thread women that will justify a woman's abuse of men.
 
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mkgal1

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True. We can probably find *someone* to defend just about any stance on anything (and that's part of the problem I see with articles like this that are sort of sitting on the fence between truths and falsehoods).

I agree that there's no difference between a man belittling/criticizing, etc---that's why I wonder about these unique words that are assigned to women only (and carried further in this article with the author's use of those words). To me.....that signifies her attempt to encourage this stereotype and not really....truly......having the goal of helping with people's behavior (my opinion). It also seems to have a subtle implication of "most women are like this...but I've seen the light and am not like *most* women". IOW.....this air of superiority. The "cool girl".
 
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mkgal1

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The challenge comes when a stereotype that an author is arguing against is gender specific. Trying to treat the issue without addressing the gender specific stereotype dilutes the message and lessens the impact to her very audience - those who have bought into the stereotype as acceptable behavior (and isn't that one of the biggest dangers of stereotypes?)

But.....I guess the issue I have is the promotion of *any* stereotype---and that's what I see this article as (a promotion/encouragement of believing stereotypes....whether they are acceptable behavior or not). It's not just that people believe or accept the behavior---it's that they assign this behavior specifically to women at all (instead of being able to recognize it as a human issue).
 
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dinonum

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I don't think that this behavior is acceptable, but rather I believe that our culture has decided that it is normal for women and even used the term "nagging" to both mock and trivialize women's issues while allowing and justifying bullying behavior. It's okay to be upset about something like your partner not paying attention to details that are important to you, but nagging is attributed similarly to the woman who expresses this with her spouse and the woman who bullies her husband. They are not mutually inclusive.
 
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mkgal1

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I read that article and the one thing that caught me was how he had the look on his face that her son would have when she scolded him. That aha moment of treating her husband like a child. This is her life partner not her child and should be treated as such.

I agree---and there were a few good points that were made in the article. I don't disagree with that.
 
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WolfGate

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But.....I guess the issue I have is the promotion of *any* stereotype---and that's what I see this article as (a promotion/encouragement of believing stereotypes....whether they are acceptable behavior or not). It's not just that people believe or accept the behavior---it's that they assign this behavior specifically to women at all (instead of being able to recognize it as a human issue).

But mkgal1 - acknowledgement is not promotion! In fact, the author is trying to get people to see the stereotype exists and has been used as an excuse so that they can stop being part of it. You cannot fix an issue without acknowledging that it exists!
 
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mkgal1

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But mkgal1 - acknowledgement is not promotion! In fact, the author is trying to get people to see the stereotype exists and has been used as an excuse so that they can stop being part of it. You cannot fix an issue without acknowledging that it exists!

I don't think I'm expressing myself very well :/

Maybe let's start here: do we all agree that a stereotype is a bias against a particular group of people? IOW...assigning a character trait to people just b/c they are in a certain group. Because people each have their own unique personalities---then within a stereotyped group of people there can be some that fit...and some that don't. I think I have something in my signature line about that---that it's not that they [stereotypes] aren't true stories....but that they make one story the *only* story.

For example: let's say someone has a bias that (I'll try to keep it on a less touchy and hopefully less personal topic) people that wear jeans and sandals as their go-to attire are liberal "tree-huggers" that put the environment over humans. If conversation begins from the point of assuming that about that person.....(without knowing if it's true or not----or if it's ALL true or only somewhat true)...then everything that follows that is already a bit on shaky ground....right? You said, "you can't fix an issue w/o acknowledging that it exists".....but *what* particular issue would we be addressing when we're not even sure about the details? Do you see what I mean? Does this clarify it: (going with the jeans/sandals guy)....if you said to him, "You know.....I used to also believe that we should do all we could to protect wildlife. God created this world and everything in it, but I realized how wrong I was.....yada yada". If that guy didn't in fact have those beliefs.....would that conversation even be of any value to him? Does that resolve anything (other than demonstrating that people look on just the surface and are too lazy/disinterested to get to know others)? Do you see what I mean now?
 
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LinkH

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MkGal1, I think the political correctness chokes out useful conversation sometimes.

The Bible addresses certain commands to husbands and certain commands to wives. It's okay to address problems that are more common with wives. The article describes a problem common to certain wives. But I think we all know that wives can be very different in this regard. Some are critical like this article describes, and some are sweet, respectful, etc.

If she'd have chosen gender-neutral language, I don't think people could have related to the article as well.
 
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mkgal1

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MkGal1, I think the political correctness chokes out useful conversation sometimes.

The Bible addresses certain commands to husbands and certain commands to wives. It's okay to address problems that are more common with wives. The article describes a problem common to certain wives. But I think we all know that wives can be very different in this regard. Some are critical like this article describes, and some are sweet, respectful, etc.
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If she'd have chosen gender-neutral language, I don't think people could have related to the article as well.
Okay....well, there you go. You just helped me to clarify my point. My complaint is that it can be used to fuel the stereotype---just as you just did.

You bring up something that I actually liked about the article: that the implication is that this wife (and, as she wrote, too many others as well) ought to behave more like their husbands do. IOW.....not follow separate "commands" but be guided by grace, respect, and humility in an effort to forge a partnership.

I disagree about using gender-neutral language and people not being able to relate as much. The way I see it---it includes *more* people to use gender-neutral phrases as she discounted half of our population by using "harping" and "nagging".

For example (I liked this summary statement) with this small change:

"It takes two to make a partnership. No one is always right and no one is always wrong. And you're not always going to see eye-to-eye on every little thing. It doesn't make you smarter, or superior, or more right to point out every little thing [he does--not necessary] that's not to your liking."
 
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WolfGate

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I don't think I'm expressing myself very well :/

Maybe let's start here: do we all agree that a stereotype is a bias against a particular group of people? IOW...assigning a character trait to people just b/c they are in a certain group. Because people each have their own unique personalities---then within a stereotyped group of people there can be some that fit...and some that don't. I think I have something in my signature line about that---that it's not that they [stereotypes] aren't true stories....but that they make one story the *only* story.

For example: let's say someone has a bias that (I'll try to keep it on a less touchy and hopefully less personal topic) people that wear jeans and sandals as their go-to attire are liberal "tree-huggers" that put the environment over humans. If conversation begins from the point of assuming that about that person.....(without knowing if it's true or not----or if it's ALL true or only somewhat true)...then everything that follows that is already a bit on shaky ground....right? You said, "you can't fix an issue w/o acknowledging that it exists".....but *what* particular issue would we be addressing when we're not even sure about the details? Do you see what I mean? Does this clarify it: (going with the jeans/sandals guy)....if you said to him, "You know.....I used to also believe that we should do all we could to protect wildlife. God created this world and everything in it, but I realized how wrong I was.....yada yada". If that guy didn't in fact have those beliefs.....would that conversation even be of any value to him? Does that resolve anything (other than demonstrating that people look on just the surface and are too lazy/disinterested to get to know others)? Do you see what I mean now?

I see what you mean, but that doesn't fit with what I think the author's purpose was.

She was not saying all women fit the stereotype.

She was addressing women who had allowed that stereotype to cause them to mistreat their husbands. For women who ask themselves the question, and say "that's not me", the article is of little value other than perhaps an interesting read. However, for her audience the article is still of major value, and the stereotype is not just relevant to the article but critical to it.

Not all articles are directed at all people. Some are targeted and that is OK.
 
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LinkH

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Okay....well, there you go. You just helped me to clarify my point. My complaint is that it can be used to fuel the stereotype---just as you just did.

You bring up something that I actually liked about the article: that the implication is that this wife (and, as she wrote, too many others as well) ought to behave more like their husbands do. IOW.....not follow separate "commands" but be guided by grace, respect, and humility in an effort to forge a partnership.

I disagree about using gender-neutral language and people not being able to relate as much. The way I see it---it includes *more* people to use gender-neutral phrases as she discounted half of our population by using "harping" and "nagging".

If you use specific language, people can picture the story in their head, and this story reads a whole lot better as being about a wife nagging her husband. If it were all about 'my spouse', first of all, we'd wonder if the author was gay, and that would be a distraction. And we wouldn't be able to picture what is going on.

I'd venture to guess that in the US, wives acting this way is a lot more common than husbands, and that it is more socially acceptable. There are men who are hypercritical like that. But an article like this has more teeth when the gender is described because its more specific, paints a better picture, and has a better emotional impact.

Also, I sat in on a dissertation defense once from someone who had studied stereotypes as part of her dissertation, and, like I'd heard before, she said that stereotypes are a natural thing. It's an outgrowth of how humans categorize and simplify a large amount of information to categorize, understand, and process it.

I don't think all women are stereotyped as acting like the women in the article. But there is a certain type of woman who does that sort of thing. And maybe some women do it on occasion. It's foolish to stick our heads in the sand about things like this in the name of not stereotyping.
 
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