What is the relation of faith and baptism in Orthodoxy? Do the Orthodox believe that baptism is necessary for salvation, such that there is no salvation apart from baptism? Is it possible to gain salvation solely by faith, apart from baptism?
Faith and Baptism
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What is the relation of faith and baptism in Orthodoxy? Do the Orthodox believe that baptism is necessary for salvation, such that there is no salvation apart from baptism? Is it possible to gain salvation solely by faith, apart from baptism?
Yes, we must be baptized so that our former sinful self is crucified with the Lord in that we die as the Lord did and be raised incorrupt as a reflection of the Lord from His resurrection. Whether infant or adult, we must live out in faith, the seal we receive in baptism.
Romans 6:12-14 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Surely there are many extraordinary individual circumstances that would prevent someone who professed Christ from baptism but then God must fulfill something man could not.
Yes, we must be baptized so that our former sinful self is crucified with the Lord in that we die as the Lord did and be raised incorrupt as a reflection of the Lord from His resurrection. Whether infant or adult, we must live out in faith, the seal we receive in baptism.
Romans 6:12-14 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Surely there are many extraordinary individual circumstances that would prevent someone who professed Christ from baptism but then God must fulfill something man could not.
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yes, baptism is necessary for salvation. nowhere does Scripture speak of baptism as an option. that being said, God would not condemn anyone because of their ignorance.
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I'm afraid that infant baptism and baptismal regeneration might be two of the things that would keep me from joining Orthodoxy.
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Wryetui
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The Church always stated baptism is necessary, it was the reformers who said otherwise, what gave them the right? Who knows. And is not only the Church who stated that, but Christ first, who said that without baptism there is no Heaven. There are three forms of baptism in our Church, the baptism of water, the baptism of the desire, which is a person who wishes from all their hearts to be in the Church who can't baptise for some reasons but for their desire of being baptised are already in the Church and the baptism of blood, which is the baptism of the martyrs who died for their faith.
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truefiction1
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And He says different things in other places. Further, that verse and passage is undoubtedly a later addition, as it is not in the oldest manuscripts.
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Wryetui
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John 3:
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
I am sorry but I do not think you have the authority to interpret the Scriptures more than the Church had in the early centuries of our religion, the Church has always interpreted that baptism is crucial to one's salvation, why wouldn't I believe the Church from the beginning? Should I believe later theories like those of the Baptists or other heresies? And that passage is no addition, I must say.
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
I am sorry but I do not think you have the authority to interpret the Scriptures more than the Church had in the early centuries of our religion, the Church has always interpreted that baptism is crucial to one's salvation, why wouldn't I believe the Church from the beginning? Should I believe later theories like those of the Baptists or other heresies? And that passage is no addition, I must say.
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Scholars disagree with you about the passage in question.
Verse 5 is not talking about water baptism. Look at the context. To correctly understand a doctrine's meaning, one must look at and discern all the relevant passages. Many passages in the NT affirm that it is faith that is required for salvation, not faith plus a ritual. With all due respect, the "church' has not always interpreted baptism as you claim. The NT church did not, based on the other relevant NT scriptures, as I said.
Any believer has the authority to interpret the scripture and should do so if that scripture is contradicted by anything or anyone else.
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Wryetui
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Yes, it clearly refered to water baptism, I don't know how you interpret it, but it's clearly refered to water baptism and the Church has always believed that baptism is necessary and crucial for one's salvation. Are you sure anyone can interpret Scripture? That's how you get more than 3000 christian protestant denominations, but the Orthodox Church has always stayed the same, with clear rules and dogmas. Also, even the Bible says that the Scripture clearly doesn't have to be interpreted by anyone:
2 Peter 1:
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
2 Peter 1:
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
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We will have to agree to disagree. Many scholars do not believe that verse refers to water baptism.
I don't believe the Orthodox Church existed in the first century.
That verse (2 Peter 1:20) is not saying what you think. Clearly scripture must be interpreted. The question is, who should be the interpreter? I believe the individual has the God-given right, privilege, and duty to interpret scripture under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I would trust that, rather than being told by an institution what the scripture means and what I must believe. God alone is Lord of the conscience. Nobody is infallible, especially not a group of people or an institution. Mistakes might be made, but I would rather they be my own mistakes rather than those imposed on me.
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truefiction1
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NT says in one passage that disciples baptized but Jesus didn't. But that's not the issue. The issue is the meaning of baptism.
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If this discussion gets to the point of stirring up strife, I will bow out. I hope it doesn't get to that point.
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Which history? History based on facts or some other history?
The churches in the NT were not part of some hierarchical institution. The churches -- assemblies -- were local and independent. Their officers were pastors and deacons. A NT bishop was a pastor, as the terms were synonymous, as were also "presbyter", "elder", "overseer". There were no monarchial bishops in the NT. This was a later development.
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truefiction1
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The meaning of baptism is something of a mystery. Jesus wants us to practice it and so we do. He is Lord over His Church. He knows what is best for us, as He is also one of us. So we bring His Gospel and His baptism to as many as we can: our own babies especially, for they are our responsibility. Also see Luke 18:16 or Matthew 19:14.
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