Preterism's Straw Men: Dispensationlism -- a Scare Word.

ThatTrueLight said:

Then there are the 144,000 Israelites from the twelve tribes mentioned right there in plain English in Rev 7, but we understand that it must mean ANYTHING BUT what it does say.

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I hope there are at least 144,000 who find Christ, out of a nation of millions.

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Straightshot said:

Then there are the 144,000 Israelites from the twelve tribes mentioned right there in plain English in Rev 7, but we understand that it must mean ANYTHING BUT what it does say


A Gentile replacement theologist would say "anything but" ..... and many claim the position for themselves

Ask them which tribe they are from

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Good question.

James_1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

How does a descendant of Jacob, who has been scattered abroad, determine what tribe he belongs to in the modern world, if it is unknown and the records have been lost?

Does it really matter what tribe they belong to, if they become a Christian?


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BABerean2 said:

I hope there are at least 144,000 who find Christ, out of a nation of millions.

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I would have thought that you didn't hope that.

"some believe Elijah will say what tribe a man is from When he comes"


The Lord said that Elijah has already come and was John the Baptist

This is true .... the great and terrible day is still pending as we speak

There is no scripture that tells Elijah will say what tribe a man is from because John the Baptist did not say this

Be careful what you read and repeat .... there is much conjecture related to Bible prophecy, especially today

"How does a descendant of Jacob, who has been scattered abroad, determine what tribe he belongs to in the modern world, if it is unknown and the records have been lost? Does it really matter what tribe they belong to, if they become a Christian?"


It does matter, and the Lord knows them all [and many do know themselves], and can and will gather them for His purposes .... believe this

Israel is not "Christian" today for the most part .... and the tribes in this case will be unbelievers as the tribulation begins

A Christian Israelite will be "caught up" and made immortal just as will any Christian Gentile just before the tribulation [Revelation 3:10]

When the tribulation begins there will be 144,000 of all of the tribes of Israel who will turn and believe [first fruits] .... and these will gain numbers by their witness [preaching] [Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-7]

A full 1/3 of all of the tribes will turn and be saved .... the balance of 2/3 will be killed in the tribulation and lost forever [Zechariah 13:8-9]

Some of the 1/3 will be killed and made immortal at the end of the tribulation [Revelation 20:1-4] .... and the rest will survive the tribulation as mortals

Lord will then appear upon the earth at the end of the tribulation and gather these surviving mortals of Israel to enter and populate His millennial kingdom upon the earth [Isaiah 11; 37:12-13; Ezekiel 36; 40:48; Micah 4; 5; Matthew 24:29-31]

He will then gather the surviving Gentiles of the nations of the tribulation and separate them, believer from unbeliever [some believing Gentiles will be killed in the tribulation and made immortal at the end of the same [Revelation 20:4] [Matthew 25:31-46]

Those found believing among the surviving Gentiles will enter and populate His millennial kingdom .... those found unbelieving will be rejected

Those found believing will have favored Israel in the tribulation period [the Lord's brethren .... His kin] .... those unbelieving will have not favored Israel during the same

gospelfer said:

According to you Moses history goes up to the return of from Babylon.
1. The first exile is to a single nation -- not many as you assert:

36 “The LORD will bring you and your king whom you set over you to a nation that neither you nor your fathers have known.

2. After this first exile Israel is to remain in a state of subjection until it is destroyed:

48 therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the LORD will send against you, in hunger and thirst, in nakedness, and lacking everything. And he will put a yoke of iron on your neck until he has destroyed you.

3. The second exile:

64 “And the LORD will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there ...

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Why didn't you provide the books and chapters so I could prove you wrong? I can quarantee you both verses you're quoting are speaking about the same thing.

The fact remains you're preaching a private misinterpretation. If it wasn't a private interpretation, it would have been noted in Christian doctrine, but it's not. No one in Christianity uses Moses' writings as prophetic prophecies for the future, only you.

gospelfer said:

So your assertion doesn't match what scripture says or history. At all.

4. You say the Babylonian return is the return Moses describes, but here is what Moses says of that return:
a. 3 then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes
In fact, Israel's fortunes were not restored. They were poor, and remained a tribute province to conquering empires (part of the curse)

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You're starting to upset me because they are numerous verses stating how Israel returned from Babylon on the shoulders of Kings and Queens, etc. You're making me feel like I'm wasting my time.

gospelfer said:

b. 5 And the LORD your God will bring you into the land that your fathers possessed, that you may possess it.
In fact, Israel did not possess the land any more than it did during the exile -- it was a province of Persia/Greece/Rome.

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??

gospelfer said:

c. 7 And the LORD your God will put all these curses on your foes and enemies who persecuted you.
In fact, Israel's enemies remained victorious, and Israel subject and persecuted until it was destroyed.

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I know of a verse that says God will set his throne in the midst of the Kings of Persia and destroy them from within. Does that sound like what you're trying to say? Israel reigned independently while invaded by 3 countries that could of enslaved them as the Babylonians did. But they didn't because it was prophesied that they would remain until the final desolation that would last until the consummation, the scripted facts.

gospelfer said:

Thus you assert Moses curse fits the Babyloninan exile, and his "return" the Babylonian return, but neither assertion matches actual history. You simply ignore the details Moses provides and how they match history.

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Why don't you provide the details instead of running your mouth. Everybody else, at least, uses the OT's prophetic books for future Israel prophesies, but not you. You have Moses prophesying in his four books, the four books which some Jews only accept of all the books in the OT just because they only contain the laws to live by with the curses and blessings if not obeyed, but you have found more.

gospelfer said:

I am not totally sure how you are trying to match Daniel's "end" ("consummation") with Moses story, but it appears you are attempting to assign it to the end of his "return" -- which for you is the Babylonian return. Daniel's "end" (see 7, 8, 9 & 10-12) terminates with the start of the millennium, so that looks totally insane.

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What's insane is trying to reason with someone who has no understanding. How in the world can the desolation end at the start of the Millennium reign when I already explained to you the consummation is the entering in to the New Shalem, which is after the 1,000 yrs reign?

Insane is trying to reason with someone who hasn't a clue, I agree!

gospelfer said:

For Daniel, "the end" means the "end of God's indignation" and end to foreign powers trampling Jerusalem and the land, followed by the millennium's start.

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I guess your meaning overrides the fact the consummation is the final act of sealing a marriage, the very final act.

gospelfer said:

How that fits with an Israel that starts out in a state of subjection and then is totally destroyed -- well, it's anybody's guess.

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I guess your guess is as good as your guess because I can't say it's as good as anybody else's because you're not that considerate.

I noticed you didn't address these responses to these statements:

gospelfer said:

As for the NT saying the Jew no longer exists, may I suggest the apostle Paul?:
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

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Which proves it wasn't prophesied; because if it was, Paul would of said "when they're fully included," and not "will," which past tense is "would," a conditional word, which proves it's not a fact. Checkmate!
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gospelfer said:

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

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Taken out of context, the context of the fact is the fullness of Gentiles being when Christ possesses his heavenly kingdom, when the whole nation of Israel will be saved.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

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When is that, and who is he talking about?
Paul was not speaking about a 2,000yrs later nation coming to Christ because it was prophesied. He is speaking about Christ saving the remnant at that time as prophesied in the OT. He's explaining, as everybody else has tried to explain to you, that Christ was their salvation, and the very fulfillment of the OT prophesy of blindness falling on Israel until that time, the time of Christ! The fullness of the Gentiles was then. That was the day.

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BABerean2 said:

Do you think any of the dead who are judged at the John chapter 5 resurrection will be from the 12 tribes of Israel

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These are getting to be pretty desperate attempts to dodge the truth. The time has come to face the truth, so man up and face it. Both Christ and His apostles fully anticipated a redeemed and restored Israel on earth, with the twelve tribes in proper and full possession of all the land between the Nile and the Euphrates, and the twelve apostles sitting as royal judges over those twelve tribes. Ezekiel s prophecy must be taken for what it is, and every attempt to dodge the reality of the Millennium and the Millenial Temple is an attempt to run away from Bible Truth.

"As Micah 4 tells us Elijah can only come with the great and awesome day of the Lord"


gospelfer

I appreciate your good work above .... can you show me the scripture that tells "Elijah can only come "with"

The KJV I have tells "before"

I believe that Elijah has already come before the GTDL ..... which is still pending as we speak

So the Lord could say that Elijah had already come, and he was John the Baptist as the Lord said

ThatTrueLight said:

I would have thought that you didn't hope that.

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Since my wife and I support both Jews for Jesus and Word of Messiah ministries, you would be very, very, wrong.

I had the pleasure of meeting Sam Nadler, from Word of Messiah, when he did a program at a local church.
We have been supporting his ministry since that time.

We believe the time is now to bring the Gospel to the Jewish people, because we believe they need to be grafted back into the Olive Tree for salvation.

We believe the Church is the only Plan.


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Job8 said:

These are getting to be pretty desperate attempts to dodge the truth. The time has come to face the truth, so man up and face it. Both Christ and His apostles fully anticipated a redeemed and restored Israel on earth, with the twelve tribes in proper and full possession of all the land between the Nile and the Euphrates, and the twelve apostles sitting as royal judges over those twelve tribes. Ezekiel s prophecy must be taken for what it is, and every attempt to dodge the reality of the Millennium and the Millenial Temple is an attempt to run away from Bible Truth.

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Every important doctrine in the New Testament is clearly repeated over and over again to make sure we got it.

The Dispensational version does not fit that requirement.

It requires cherry-picking a verse here and a verse there and throwing in some verses from the Old Testament to make it work. "The time of Jacob's trouble" and the "abomination of desolation" are two classics that have been ripped out of their historical fulfillment and shoved into the future. Most Jews who celebrate Hanukkah, know about the abomination of desolation by Antiochus Epiphanes in 167 BC. However, Dispensationalists seem clueless, and throw out the word "preterist" to cover their error.

One of the biggest shams is taking a covenant confirmed by Christ in Daniel chapter 9 and then inserting a manmade gap of undetermined length to end up with a treaty broken by the antichrist.

And then we are told to "Man Up" and admit that this is Bible Truth.

Are you serious!

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Straightshot,
are you aware that many people think grafting back = reconnecting to an inherent ethnos who are to be blessed? Paul was talking about having faith in the Gospel, not 'oh, I'm Jewish and we have a separate set of promises coming.'

BABerean2 said:

Since my wife and I support both Jews for Jesus and Word of Messiah ministries, you would be very, very, wrong.

I had the pleasure of meeting Sam Nadler, from Word of Messiah, when he did a program at a local church.
We have been supporting his ministry since that time.

We believe the time is now to bring the Gospel to the Jewish people, because we believe they need to be grafted back into the Olive Tree for salvation.

We believe the Church is the only Plan.


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It shows.

BABerean2 said:

Every important doctrine in the New Testament is clearly repeated over and over again to make sure we got it.

The Dispensational version does not fit that requirement.

It requires cherry-picking a verse here and a verse there and throwing in some verses from the Old Testament to make it work. "The time of Jacob's trouble" and the "abomination of desolation" are two classics that have been ripped out of their historical fulfillment and shoved into the future. Most Jews who celebrate Hanukkah, know about the abomination of desolation by Antiochus Epiphanes in 167 BC. However, Dispensationalists seem clueless, and throw out the word "preterist" to cover their error.

One of the biggest shams is taking a covenant confirmed by Christ in Daniel chapter 9 and then inserting a manmade gap of undetermined length to end up with a treaty broken by the antichrist.

And then we are told to "Man Up" and admit that this is Bible Truth.

Are you serious!

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It's not our fault that your ignorant of the OT and choose to ignore the simple mystery from the apostle to the Gentiles.

BABerean2 said:

Every important doctrine in the New Testament is clearly repeated over and over again to make sure we got it.

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Because God has also given the Old Testament to the Church (which is even more extensive than the NT), He does not find it necessary to repeat everything that He has already revealed there about Israel. All the prophets from Moses to Malachi have provided us with all the doctrine concerning redeemed and restored Israel. So it is indeed time to man up and face the truth (as painful as it may be).

Job8 said:

Because God has also given the Old Testament to the Church (which is even more extensive than the NT), He does not find it necessary to repeat everything that He has already revealed there about Israel. All the prophets from Moses to Malachi have provided us with all the doctrine concerning redeemed and restored Israel. So it is indeed time to man up and face the truth (as painful as it may be).

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The truth is painful sometimes.

Let us look at the truth about Dispensational Theology.


Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology


Pastor John Otis

Job8 said:

Because God has also given the Old Testament to the Church (which is even more extensive than the NT), He does not find it necessary to repeat everything that He has already revealed there about Israel. All the prophets from Moses to Malachi have provided us with all the doctrine concerning redeemed and restored Israel. So it is indeed time to man up and face the truth (as painful as it may be).

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And this is exactly what the Apostle to the GENTILES warns the Christian church in Rome about.. ignorance. And we can see that it often results in willful ignorance as well, which of course leads to men becoming wise in their own conceitedness.

It's what happens when men read a few pages of the NT and then think that they're some type of biblical scholar or something.

ThatTrueLight said:

And this is exactly what the Apostle to the GENTILES warns the Christian church in Rome about.. ignorance. And we can see that it often results in willful ignorance as well, which of course leads to men becoming wise in their own conceitedness.

It's what happens when men read a few pages of the NT and then think that they're some type of biblical scholar or something.

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Mat_7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.


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