Disobedience has consequences.

Colter · May 21, 2015

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Timeless truth I speak to you: whoever keeps my word shall never see death.”

Jesus

Davian · May 21, 2015

Colter said:
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Timeless truth I speak to you: whoever keeps my word shall never see death.”

Jesus

Then they died.

GrimKingGrim · May 21, 2015

Messy said:
That's good for you. Just an example of being a slave: being addicted to smoking and wanting to stop, but not able to. I know atheists who just stopped, but I couldn't without God's help. Lol and they don't have that sign for female anymore.

Okay so you have an interesting definition of slave

No I said I was no good when I didn't serve Him.

Because what?

Let's say I wasn't really normal and friendly when I didn't serve Him. I really hated a lot of people. When I got saved that was the first thing that had changed.

So you convinced yourself that a god is real and you changed. Could you not just do this on your own?

Well if hell is like they say God is not there torturing anyone. It's the kingdom of the dude with the nice looking fruit who's an expert in lying.

Satan wasn't in Eden. Belial. Lucifer. The Morning Star. No, he wasn't there. And I'm not even sure he's in hell either.

He proved that He loves you by dying for you. How do you know the dude with the candy is so nice? How did he prove that?

Proves how he loved me by dying for me? How is that proving he loves me? One, he's immortal so that's like an inconvenience to himself. Two, they're the same person. Three he planned it to impress himself. HOW DOES- sigh... nevermind. I swear.

If He hadn't taken the punishment of sin Himself to reconcile us with Him I would agree.

He did it to get his narc on.

I've never seen a sadistic narcissistic sadist letting himself get killed for someone.

So he's a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] too. Remember he planned to elaborately torture a human being who happened to be himself to impress himself. Narcissistic.

I believe it was protection that they died so they could be saved and that He couldn't have known that Lucifer would become such a monster and invent sin.

Too easy... wow I chose not to even quote the next couple lines. You seem to not read the bible or think too analytically. I'm not even gonna bother.

oi_antz · May 22, 2015

GillDouglas said:
The good news remains in all who call themselves Christians.

This doesn't seem accurate, can you please check this?

oi_antz · May 22, 2015

Archaeopteryx said:
How petty.

Can you please explain this opinion?

oi_antz · May 22, 2015

GillDouglas said:
Then why is God referred to as our Heavenly Father if not a good analogy?

It seems to be for our benefit. Whereas parents are human and have limited information/knowledge/perception, He does not. But we benefit by thinking of Him as a father, and He seems to be comfortable for us to do so.

oi_antz · May 22, 2015

GrimKingGrim said:
I believe in the one thing he fears. And he dares not touch me.

What does this mean?

GrimKingGrim said:
I have reason [...] thank you.

Can you please provide a link to this?

oi_antz · May 22, 2015

TillICollapse said:
Do you find awareness of the existence of God to be "common sense" ?

I do.

oi_antz · May 22, 2015

GillDouglas said:
Who needs logic when you have faith? I don't know know how electricity works, but I have faith the lights will turn on when I flip the switch.

Continuing with this analogy.. would you recommend your services to someone who needs their wiring fixed?

Adam81 · May 22, 2015

GillDouglas said:
God is not a big fluffy teddy bear that is all sugar coated rainbows and hugs. There are some Christians that might preach this, but then they're changing the Bible to fit them instead of changing themselves to fit the Bible. God is just like an earthly parent who wants His children to obey. Just like a parent has a need for discipline when it comes to a child's obedience, the same applies to the big picture. We are children of God regardless of your belief, and you are not exempt from making mistakes regardless of how 'good' you think you are. If you screw up as a kid, do you not ask your parents for forgiveness? When they forgive you, do you then not except it? What causes you such heart hardheartedness that you are unwilling to treat your Heavenly Father the same?

God's wrath is real, and it will pour out on those who refuse to accept his forgiveness. God is a jealous God, and He does not want us worshiping anything over Him. If you do not believe in Him, than you believe in something else. A false idol. The new false idols of this world are money, property, self, food, celebrities, etc. When we love something worldly more than God we are living in sin. We must love God, each other, and put our faith in Him. He has chosen us, and we should be thankful. Follow the rules of the loving parent who created us, and remain obedient to the Word of God. "For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God." (1 Peter 2:15-16)

God is the lifeguard. The consequences of refusing to let the lifeguard save you are serious. God doesn't care that we have sin, he sacrificed his Son so we could be saved - as long as we accept it.
God forgives all our sins if we ask, but when we do sins there are still earthly consequences to our actions.

oi_antz · May 22, 2015

bhsmte said:
This where I think many believers and non believers simply use the term "faith" differently. Believers to me, tend to use the term faith much more often, when I personally don't believe the term applies.

To me, having faith means when you are banking on hope and if you are banking on hope, that would mean you don't possess evidence to support the position, so it requires this hope and faith.

When I turn on the light switch, I "trust" it is going to go on, because I have an objective track record of it doing so. Just as, I trust the sun will come up tomorrow and my car will start in the morning. All of these, have objective track records and reasons to indicate they will happen.

On faith, I have faith my favorite team will win the world series in the next few years, even though they haven't for over 100.

Faith in a Christian perspective, as St Paul described:

* Confidence in what we hope for.
* Assurance of what we do not see.

Please correct Christians when they don't understand this. Most people do not really try to make sense of this statement.

oi_antz · May 22, 2015

Davian said:
Then they died.

Yes, Who does He think He is?

oi_antz · May 22, 2015

GrimKingGrim said:
Proves how he loved me by dying for me? How is that proving he loves me? One, he's immortal so that's like an inconvenience to himself. Two, they're the same person. Three he planned it to impress himself. HOW DOES- sigh... nevermind. I swear.

.. Just out of interest, what do you think would have been the better option for Him to prove He loves you instead of allowing them to do that to Him?

Eudaimonist · May 22, 2015

GillDouglas said:
God is not a big fluffy teddy bear that is all sugar coated rainbows and hugs.

God might even be evil.

God is just like an earthly parent who wants His children to obey.

Except in one very important respect. I had direct experience of my earthly parents. Their existence was entirely self-evident to me (even at a very young age), and it would be absurd for me to deny that. I did not have to be told that my parents existed. However, the existence of God is very much in question. It is not absurd to question the existence of a God.

Just like a parent has a need for discipline when it comes to a child's obedience, the same applies to the big picture.

We aren't children.

This is important on one vital way: obedience isn't a virtue of human adults. That is only the creed of slaves and slavers.

It is a childish morality indeed that sees right and wrong merely in terms of obedience.

We are children of God regardless of your belief

We aren't children, regardless of yours.

and you are not exempt from making mistakes regardless of how 'good' you think you are.

I would think not, but that doesn't say in itself what a God should do, if anything.

What causes you such heart hardheartedness that you are unwilling to treat your Heavenly Father the same?

It has a lot to do with not knowing that any such being exists. I don't ask forgiveness from Odin either.

God's wrath is real, and it will pour out on those who refuse to accept his forgiveness.

Good parents aren't wrathful, and certainly not if the child was adopted at a very young age and doesn't know who her real parents are. This God of yours sounds like an abusive parent.

If you do not believe in Him, than you believe in something else. A false idol.

Or a true idol. Or no idol at all.

eudaimonia,

Mark

GrimKingGrim · May 22, 2015

oi_antz said:
What does this mean?

Yahweh fears death as all gods do. Death is the true unchanging. Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah is just next in line as were the gods of yesteryear. His stalwarts are valiant but so were the previous ones.

But alas, we're just tomorrow's yesteryear.

Can you please provide a link to this?

Reason and understanding of the world around me isn't exactly something I can link to. But I'll explain it like this: the world is labeless and meaningless. If you try to apply static meaning to it that isn't "It has none" it will always strive to prove you wrong with ease.

Faith is a means to label life and try to pin it down to one meaning and a particularly disturbing one at that. And then those who seek to keep life and the world in the bounds of this meaning are always sorely disappointed when things don't go as they believe it should. Which is where constant prayer and reaffirmation of belief is constantly in play to try and change the cards to a game that isn't even being played.

Understanding that you can only apply meaning to things relative to you and your life is a good way to live life. Not slapping a huge "It's all because [x]" label on mine, yours, everyone else's, and the universe's whole existence.

oi_antz said:
.. Just out of interest, what do you think would have been the better option for Him to prove He loves you instead of allowing them to do that to Him?

By actually be a present force in our lives and actively trying to guide us through our perils with proper guidance and seeking only to watch us flourish. Punishment would be to actually teach a lesson and not because he wants to hear screams, but then again he's a sadist so I guess it works in his favor.

Ask yourself this question, I'm not sure if you're a parent, but say you were an absentee parent who goes to great lengths to hide yourself from your child at any cost and your child begins to act out in reaction.

Do you blame your child at all?

If all the supposed evidence to your child of you even being real is supposed gifts around him, clothes, furniture, a tv, but never actually seeing you so it's just as plausible to say that the child's mother simply says its from dad than it actually being from you.

Do you blame your child for questioning if you care or if you're there?

If you then seek to punish your child for acting out with harsh groundings and ordering other people to beat him. But never yourself. And you still refuse to ever play an active role in their life.

Do you think the child would respect you?

And say you want to forgive your child and you want him to know it after being absentee his or her entire life. You want to forgive him and he has to know. You take another son you've had from another relationship, you brutally torture and murder him in front of many many people. The news media sees it and reports it for weeks.

"Man tortures and kills his son in broad daylight in front of crowd. After the child dies he screams 'IT IS DONE. I LOVE YOU SON! YOU ARE FORGIVEN! DO YOU ACCEPT THAT I LOVE YOU NOW? SEE, I MURDERED MY OTHER SON JUST FOR YOU!'"

Do you blame your child for not only not accepting a disgracefully unnecessary blood sacrifice in lieu of just showing your face and just forgiving him but also questioning who you're even talking to?

It would seem you don't even love your child and are so angry with him that simple forgiving won't do. You have to take out all that bloody rage and anger on someone before you can forgive. And who better to take it out on than your own flesh and blood? That way he won't resist or see it coming.

That's not what I would call "loving."

Would you ever do that to your own son or daughter? The answer is no unless I need to call police.

If you think a brutal murder just gets my stomach all in butterflies to praise something then you have a sick mind. Anyone who thinks that a brutal murder is acceptable as a payment is off their rocker. Why did god have to murder someone? Why not just show his face and straight up talk to everyone in the Middle East? Not only that but the sacrifice didn't even work, he's supposedly still angry with humans so it may as well been for the crime of eating bacon for all the good it did. He seems really incompetent.

The way he could show his supposed love is by actually loving and being there. Not killing. Sorry, I'm not sick enough that I jump for joy thinking "man that Crucifixion was amazing, right?" All it shows is a reflection of the barbaric time those people lived in.

But let's play a fair game: How do you think God can adequately show his love? How do you think he should have? Do you think torture and murder was the way to go?

hiphopopotomus · May 22, 2015

Eudaimonist said:
God might even be evil.

Except in one very important respect. I had direct experience of my earthly parents. Their existence was entirely self-evident to me (even at a very young age), and it would be absurd for me to deny that. I did not have to be told that my parents existed. However, the existence of God is very much in question. It is not absurd to question the existence of a God.

We aren't children.

This is important on one vital way: obedience isn't a virtue of human adults. That is only the creed of slaves and slavers.

It is a childish morality indeed that sees right and wrong merely in terms of obedience.

We aren't children, regardless of yours.

I would think not, but that doesn't say in itself what a God should do, if anything.

It has a lot to do with not knowing that any such being exists. I don't ask forgiveness from Odin either.

Good parents aren't wrathful, and certainly not if the child was adopted at a very young age and doesn't know who her real parents are. This God of yours sounds like an abusive parent.

Or a true idol. Or no idol at all.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Some interesting comments there Mark.

I think it probably fair to conclude from our human perspective that God is indeed evil.Of course that is only our [limited] perspective but one that critical thinking would lead us to believe.
Indeed a panel of psychologists and psychiatrists when asked to diagnose a personality type to God concluded that he was a classic sadistic psychopath.Most important indicators of that were intentional and persistent cruelty to animals,controlling and threatening behaviour and an [apparent] lack of empathy for the suffering of others.He even ordained the torture to death of his own son.

Which is why only a fool would choose not to believe in him and try to follow his orders.
Which is getting back to where this topic started.
We can admire the courage of those who choose not to follow this path but is even a small risk of being wrong worth the potential for future suffering?

The people I feel sorry for are the millions and millions who lived and died before Jesus and who were not given the opportunity to be saved.Count your blessings.God was really cruel to those people.

GrimKingGrim · May 22, 2015

hiphopopotomus said:
Some interesting comments there Mark.

I think it probably fair to conclude from our human perspective that God is indeed evil.Of course that is only our [limited] perspective but one that critical thinking would lead us to believe.
Indeed a panel of psychologists and psychiatrists when asked to diagnose a personality type to God concluded that he was a classic sadistic psychopath.Most important indicators of that were intentional and persistent cruelty to animals,controlling and threatening behaviour and an [apparent] lack of empathy for the suffering of others.He even ordained the torture of his own son.

Which is why only a fool would choose not to believe in him and try to follow his orders.
Which is getting back to where this topic started.
We can admire the courage of those who choose not to follow this path but is even a small risk of being wrong worth the potential for future suffering?

Hints of humanity, drowned out by fear.

Mind you. I'm the one among us who's actually fixated with death and I value the human life more than most of you. That's troubling. Not actually commenting on my character but pointing out the delicious irony of it all.

The people I feel sorry for are the millions and millions who lived and died before Jesus and who were not given the opportunity to be saved.Count your blessings.God was really cruel to those people.

And you worship this character with all your heart. Out of fear. But you literally just pointed out one of the biggest plotholes in your biblical canon. Why does no one ever just rationally question this stuff? It's like Stockholm Syndrome.

Eudaimonist · May 22, 2015

hiphopopotomus said:
Which is why only a fool would choose not to believe in him and try to follow his orders.

Or someone with integrity.

We can admire the courage of those who choose not to follow this path but is even a small risk of being wrong worth the potential for future suffering?

I'd rather not be sent to Tartarus by Zeus, so should I believe in Zeus "just in case"?

Do you look around you and run every time you go outside because a fire breathing dragon might eat you? Is it worth the risk of being wrong?

Pascal's Wager is all a farce anyway. The fool is someone who falls for that apologetic.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Colter · May 22, 2015

It is a timeless truth, "the way of the transgressor is hard".

But the concepts of deity, of the crimes and punishment, of sin, have evolved throughout the history of the Biblical writings man tends to see God as one like himself.

"The Scriptures always have, and always will, reflect the intellectual, moral, and spiritual status of those who create them."

The prophets repeatedly tried to move their fellows into a higher realization of the true God, but often they were mistreated and their inspiring words failed to take root in the hearts of the community.

GrimKingGrim · May 22, 2015

The whole concept of deities period is just faulty. Darn evolution.

Eudaimonist said:
I'd rather not be sent to Tartarus by Zeus, so should I believe in Zeus "just in case"?

Pascal's Wager is all a farce anyway. The fool is someone who falls for that apologetic.

The trick is to make you believe it's all a game and they make you believe you're force to play this game that they set up and are only allowed to use what they give you.

But as Maria Daniels said on the classic TV show The Wire, "The game is rigged, but you cannot lose if you do not play"

Disobedience has consequences.

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