Israel is the Church or Israel and the Church

ContraMundum

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I have, but nevertheless:

Let's start with the Paschal hymns being anti-semitic;

They aren't.

Your move.

You don't think so? Even the smarter Orthodox Priests admit it. It's not even Christian to pray for vengeance on an entire people, let alone something that happened 2000 years ago. It's just hideous and vile, and Chrysostom has a lot to answer for.
 
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Open Heart

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You don't think so? Even the smarter Orthodox Priests admit it. It's not even Christian to pray for vengeance on an entire people, let alone something that happened 2000 years ago. It's just hideous and vile, and Chrysostom has a lot to answer for.
Cappadocious, please read his link, don't just skirt by it. You may be shocked what it says. OR maybe you are aware of the liturgy and don't think it's anti-semitic because you agree with it? ARE Jews "Christ-killers"? ARE we guilty of deicide?
 
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ContraMundum

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Cappadocious, please read his link, don't just skirt by it. You may be shocked what it says. OR maybe you are aware of the liturgy and don't think it's anti-semitic because you agree with it? ARE Jews "Christ-killers"? ARE we guilty of deicide?
...and does he pray that God would take vengeance on us? Not to mention that those prayers describe all Jews as "lawless". Awful. The rest of the Christian world has repented, but this antisemitism is enshrined as "holy Tradition" by some.
 
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Open Heart

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...and does he pray that God would take vengeance on us? Not to mention that those prayers describe all Jews as "lawless". Awful. The rest of the Christian world has repented, but this antisemitism is enshrined as "holy Tradition" by some.

Consider the following difference: When bishop Williamson went Nazi, claiming that the Holocaust never happened, he was ousted by the Pope. When the Greek Orthodox Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus claimed that Jews were trying to enslave Greece and Christian Orthodoxy, and that Hitler was funded by Zionists, NO ONE DID A THING.

Eastern Europe is still entrenched with anti-semitism, including in the Orthodox Church, perhaps especially there.
 
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Consider the following difference: When bishop Williamson went Nazi, claiming that the Holocaust never happened, he was ousted by the Pope. When the Greek Orthodox Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus claimed that Jews were trying to enslave Greece and Christian Orthodoxy, and that Hitler was funded by Zionists, NO ONE DID A THING.

Eastern Europe is still entrenched with anti-semitism, including in the Orthodox Church, perhaps especially there.

Considering also that Williamson was always a backward looking nutter (SSPX and all that) it's interesting to see that such ill-thought and unChristian prejudices seem to go hand in hand with enshrining a version of Christianity that is rather political and has a romanticized view of days gone by.
 
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Open Heart

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Considering also that Williamson was always a backward looking nutter (SSPX and all that) it's interesting to see that such ill-thought and unChristian prejudices seem to go hand in hand with enshrining a version of Christianity that is rather political and has a romanticized view of days gone by.
I attended my first Latin Mass ever just a couple weeks ago with some friends of mine. It was an hour away. We could have gone to a nearby SSPX church, but avoided it like the plague. For me a big reason is that SSPX harbors so many anti-semites. It's not that everyone in the group is that way, but if you ARE an anti-semite, you will surely find a safe haven there. I believe that one of the reasons they reject Vatican 2 is the rejection of Nostra Aetate and it's statements about the Jews not being to blame for the death of Christ.
 
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Cappadocious

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You don't think so? Even the smarter Orthodox Priests admit it. It's not even Christian to pray for vengeance on an entire people, let alone something that happened 2000 years ago.
Care to cite St. John of Damascus's (not Chrysostom's) service on the matter?

If there is indeed a call to vengeance, it would be wrong of course, I admit (though very OT). But I'm suspicious.
 
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I attended my first Latin Mass ever just a couple weeks ago with some friends of mine. It was an hour away. We could have gone to a nearby SSPX church, but avoided it like the plague. For me a big reason is that SSPX harbors so many anti-semites. It's not that everyone in the group is that way, but if you ARE an anti-semite, you will surely find a safe haven there. I believe that one of the reasons they reject Vatican 2 is the rejection of Nostra Aetate and it's statements about the Jews not being to blame for the death of Christ.
It is important to keep in mind that one can regard Rabbinic Judaism as a non-christian religion with no special status before God without being anti-Jewish and without being an anti-Semite. It is also important to know what constitutes the Israel of God and avoid falling into the Christian-Zionist view that mere physical descent from Abraham (through Isaac and Jacob) makes Jews the chosen race. In fact the idea of race is itself highly questionable given that no single person is going to be a "pure" anything as far as the old categories of race (a mainly pre-genetic age concept) go. The passages I mentioned in my previous post and the statement of saint Paul to the effect that "[God] has made of one blood all nations of men that dwell on all the face of the earth" point us in the right direction for answering this thread's question. Saint Paul observed that "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:28-29).
 
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Open Heart

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Saint Paul observed that "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:28-29).
People often misquote this verse, which is really about equality before God, to try and say it means there are no longer any Jews or Gentiles in a practical sense. Not true. It also says there are no more male or female, but I'm sure no one's private parts have fallen off.
 
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People often misquote this verse, which is really about equality before God, to try and say it means there are no longer any Jews or Gentiles in a practical sense. Not true. It also says there are no more male or female, but I'm sure no one's private parts have fallen off.
In Christ there is literally no male and no female just as there is no Jew or Gentile and no slave or free. The operative word in this is "in" it is in communion with Christ that these distinctions, which mark society in this world, cease to exist as operative distinctions. That is not to say that one ceases to be a Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female in this world.

The passage in Galatians is part of a discussion about union with Christ ending the social and racial distinctions that were such an important part of the religion of the Pharisees. The Pharisees spent a lot of effort in keeping themselves separate from Gentiles and that was a cause of some difficulties in Christian communities where both Jew and Gentile had to learn to be Christian rather than Jew or Gentile. Many Pharisees had converted to Christianity as is evidenced in the first two chapters of saint Paul's letter to the Galatian Christians.

The council recorded in Acts chapter fifteen also testifies to the conversion of many Jews "who were zealous for the Law" and who were troubled by saint Paul's teaching among the Jews scattered in Gentile lands.

Saint Paul says in Galatians that he "did not give an inch" to the desire of some former Pharisees to have Gentiles observe the Law of Moses and keep circumcision. So it is obvious that saint Paul does in fact intend to teach that when one converts to Christianity then one's adherence to
Pharisee's religious precepts and the traditions of the elders is no longer tenable. The elders in question appear to be the seventy elders mentioned in Exodus who accompanied Moses to the foot of mount Sinai and who also, according to Pharisee traditions, received extra revelations from God about the way one is to live and obey the precepts of the Mosaic Law.

These traditions of the elders were criticised by the Lord Jesus Christ when he observed "
Well has Isaiah prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honours me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do." (Mark 7:6-8) He said this when the Pharisees said to him "Why don't your disciples walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?".

Thus the church has always taught that those who become Christians, regardless of their ancestry, are one in Christ and constitute the body of Christ rather than separate bodies of Christians from various cultures and communities including the Jews and the Greeks as well as Romans and so forth. And saint Paul also says:

But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. (Colossians 3:8-17)

 
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Open Heart

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A thoughtful post, Coffee. It's going to take me a while to digest.
The council recorded in Acts chapter fifteen also testifies to the conversion of many Jews "who were zealous for the Law" and who were troubled by saint Paul's teaching among the Jews scattered in Gentile lands.
Actually in Acts 15 the council concerns itself with GENTILE converts who Judaizers are pressuring to convert to Judaism, while Paul and Peter are advocating that they remain righteous Gentiles. The council never states that JEWS were not obligated to continue observing the Law.

I think you may be confusing Acts 15 with Acts 21, which does describe the thousands of Jewish converts as "zealous for the Law," and IS concerned with the rumor of what Paul is teaching Jews in the diaspora.
 
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A thoughtful post, Coffee. It's going to take me a while to digest.
Actually in Acts 15 the council concerns itself with GENTILE converts who Judaizers are pressuring to convert to Judaism, while Paul and Peter are advocating that they remain righteous Gentiles. I think you may be confusing Acts 15 with Acts 21, which does use the phrase "zealous for the Law," and IS concerned with the rumor of what Paul is teaching Jews in the diaspora.
Yeah, the phrase is from Acts 21. And Acts 15 is about the preaching of saint Paul troubling the former Pharisees in the church.
Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved."
(Acts 15:1)

When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them. Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
(Acts 15:4-5)

The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
(Acts 15:6-10)
 
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Open Heart

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Yeah, the phrase is from Acts 21. And Acts 15 is about the preaching of saint Paul troubling the former Pharisees in the church.
Yes, I commonly use Acts 15 when dealing with fellow Messianics who are convinced that everyone (gentiles included) are required to observe the 613 laws. BTW these were not ex-Pharisees. They brought their strict observences with them into the Church. Remember that at this time in history, Christianity was a sect of Judaism still.
 
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Yes, I commonly use Acts 15 when dealing with fellow Messianics who are convinced that everyone (gentiles included) are required to observe the 613 laws. BTW these were not ex-Pharisees. They brought their strict observences with them into the Church. Remember that at this time in history, Christianity was a sect of Judaism still.
Yes, the lack of the ex was a problem both for them and for saint Paul and the apostles hence the council decision which so directly challenged and disavowed the Pharisee's position.
 
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Care to cite St. John of Damascus's (not Chrysostom's) service on the matter?

If there is indeed a call to vengeance, it would be wrong of course, I admit (though very OT). But I'm suspicious.

You don't use the Byzantine Rite????? But your Icon says Eastern orthodox. I've never heard of the Damascene Rite. I have his works right here on my desk (lookin' right at 'em) and I don't see him penning a Rite for Churches to use for Easter. I've just checked. Perhaps you have a different source I can take a look at?

Anyway, here's a link. Details in the footnotes.
 
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A thoughtful post, Coffee. It's going to take me a while to digest.
Actually in Acts 15 the council concerns itself with GENTILE converts who Judaizers are pressuring to convert to Judaism, while Paul and Peter are advocating that they remain righteous Gentiles. The council never states that JEWS were not obligated to continue observing the Law.

I think you may be confusing Acts 15 with Acts 21, which does describe the thousands of Jewish converts as "zealous for the Law," and IS concerned with the rumor of what Paul is teaching Jews in the diaspora.

Good point, and it also shows how faithful the Apostles were to Judaism- even in our time no Jews teach that Gentiles are obligated to the 613 laws. In fact, every person on the planet is obligated to follow the laws that pertain particularly to them, and only those laws. eg. I cannot observe the laws given to women, being a male. Nor can I follow the laws of animal sacrifice, there being no Temple etc...
 
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Good point, and it also shows how faithful the Apostles were to Judaism- even in our time no Jews teach that Gentiles are obligated to the 613 laws. In fact, every person on the planet is obligated to follow the laws that pertain particularly to them, and only those laws. eg. I cannot observe the laws given to women, being a male. Nor can I follow the laws of animal sacrifice, there being no Temple etc...
There is more to it than that. Even if there were a temple - and some people do wish to rebuild it and it may be that it will be rebuilt some time in the future - nobody could offer sacrifices in it that would please God because the one sacrifice for sins has already been made and offered to God on the cross which sacrifice cleanses from all their sins those who place their faith in Jesus the Messiah. As the scriptures say and as saint Paul reiterates there is salvation in Christ alone because he is the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world but the sacrifices of animals in the temple can avail no one any more.
 
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Open Heart

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There is more to it than that. Even if there were a temple - and some people do wish to rebuild it and it may be that it will be rebuilt some time in the future - nobody could offer sacrifices in it that would please God because the one sacrifice for sins has already been made and offered to God on the cross which sacrifice cleanses from all their sins those who place their faith in Jesus the Messiah. As the scriptures say and as saint Paul reiterates there is salvation in Christ alone because he is the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world but the sacrifices of animals in the temple can avail no one any more.
I believe that if the temple were rebuilt, the sacrifices would "look back" in memory of Christ's death, much in the same way that they "looked forward" to it before Christ.
 
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I believe that if the temple were rebuilt, the sacrifices would "look back" in memory of Christ's death, much in the same way that they "looked forward" to it before Christ.
I am inclined to think that if any Earthly temple were rebuilt and sacrifices offered in it then it would be a blasphemy and not a remembrance of the costly sacrifice of Christ. The scriptures warn that an antichrist will sit in the Earthly temple and proclaim himself to be God (2Thess 2:4). That warning was not given as idle words. The rebuilding of an Earthly temple would be a warning to all christians that something very wicked is at work. It would not be a blessing to anybody, least of all to the faithful in Christ Jesus.
 
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