Preterism's Straw Men: Rebuilding the Wall -- a non-sequitur.

ThatTrueLight said:

Here's one example of the simple truth of God's word.

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.

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I agree! Under the New Covenant the New Jerusalem should be our focus. The old city, representing the Old Covenant, was about to be cast out when Paul wrote (Gal. 4:21-31). John saw the New Jerusalem coming down as a bride, the New Covenant church, after the passing of the old. I believe Scripture portrays the timing of these events as limited to the first century AD, shortly after John wrote (Rev. 1:1-3; 22:6-12).

We definitely should continue to pray for God's people, the body of Christ made up of all believing Jews and Gentiles.

A New World said:

John saw the New Jerusalem coming down as a bride

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In a vision of the future.

The Jerusalem which is above doesn't need peace, for nothing evil shall ever enter into it.

ThatTrueLight said:

In a vision of the future.

The Jerusalem which is above doesn't need peace, for nothing evil shall ever enter into it.

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Nothing unclean can enter it but those outside can obviously have a negative affect on those within. The church has peace with God but still needs our prayers for peace with our fellow man as the gospel moves forward in this world.

gospelfer said:

As to your intentions as a believer, I agree. But this forum is about prophecy and what it says about history, and something like Isaiah 19 doesn't fit into the 1st
century:

16 In that day the Egyptians will be like women, and tremble with fear before the hand that the LORD of hosts shakes over them. 17 And the land of Judah will become a terror to the Egyptians. Everyone to whom it is mentioned will fear because of the purpose that the LORD of hosts has purposed against them.
18 In that day there will be five cities in the land of Egypt that speak the language of Canaan and swear allegiance to the LORD of hosts. One of these will be called the City of Destruction.
19 In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the LORD at its border. 20 It will be a sign and a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt. When they cry to the LORD because of oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and deliver them. 21 And the LORD will make himself known to the Egyptians, and the Egyptians will know the LORD in that day and worship with sacrifice and offering, and they will make vows to the LORD and perform them. 22 And the LORD will strike Egypt, striking and healing, and they will return to the LORD, and he will listen to their pleas for mercy and heal them.
23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and Assyria will come into Egypt, and Egypt into Assyria, and the Egyptians will worship with the Assyrians.
24 In that day Israel will be the third with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth, 25 whom the LORD of hosts has blessed, saying, “Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel my inheritance.”

And this is the problem with preterism. There is a big pile of prophecy which does fit what it says about history.

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I don't know of anyone, including myself, who thinks Isaiah 19 was fulfilled in the first century AD. However, I do think it was fulfilled in the past, not all that long after it was prophesied by Isaiah. Commentaries disagree as to exactly which defeat of Egypt this particular prophecy applies. The prophecies of the defeat of Israel's enemies like Babylon in Is. 13 and Egypt in Is. 19 were God's judgments against evil foreign kingdoms. The prophets used apocalyptic, cosmic, figurative language to describe the transfer of power from these kingdoms as a direct result of God's promised judgment. This was never intended to be taken as end of the planet or end of time prophecies.

Straightshot said:

Well I have to tell you this, 70 AD is not in any prophet's vision, or even the Lord's own projections

.... just not there period

In fact events of last 2000 years are not recorded in any vision .... all of the balance of unfulfilled prophecy is still pending

And this will go on until this [Romans 11:25-36]

You just hopped on the bus to fast with the 70 AD idea

... and I must say that if it all happened in 70 AD .... you have a problem

But it did not .... so you still have a chance!

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What did Jesus say?

Mat 21:23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?


Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:


Mat 21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.


Mat 21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.


Mat 21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.


Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.


Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.


Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.


Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?


Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

The chief priests and elders sentenced themselves for killing Jesus.
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Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

From John Darby's commentary on the verse above.

...These were the days of vengeance on the Jews, who had crowned their rebellion by rejecting the Lord. Therefore Jerusalem should be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled, that is, the times destined to the sovereignty of the Gentile empires according to the counsel of God revealed in the prophecies of Daniel. This is the period in which we now live....

gospelfer said:

New World: you seem like a nice guy and a very sincere believer. We are both agreed on the meaning of the Gospel and its universal applicability. So what am I to say?

The Egyptians and Babylonians of the 7/6 century had neither the Law now the Gospel. How could they be "God's people, a blessing in the earth." And at the same time, God was so angry with Israel that he simply annihilated the Northern Kingdom (Ephraim), and then sent Judah into exile, making it a subject province of a series of empires. How can this be the time Isaiah is describing? Isaiah 19 doesn't fit anywhere in the past.

God bless, brother.

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Thank you for the kind words. You seem like a nice guy and a sincere believer also. I think it's important that we represent ourselves in ways pleasing to God. Sometimes I forget that fact but I'm becoming more consistent by God's grace.

I think the answer to your points above involve perspective. You ask: "How could they be God's people, a blessing on the earth."

Israel was God's chosen people on the earth. When they obeyed His commandments they were a light to the surrounding nations. When they disobeyed they brought disgrace to His name and became a stumblingblock to the nations.

Ironically, when God used a foreign power to carry out judgments on His own people, the nations became God's instruments. As you noted, God was angry with both Israel and Judah in Isaiah's time. They were destined for divorce and destruction. But, God had made promises to their Fathers that He would ultimately restore them. We see that restoration as spiritual and being accomplished in the first century AD.

The title of this thread motivated me to defend the Preterist view. The idea that we must erect strawman arguments in order to interact with those who hold the futurist view is simply not true. The more I study Scripture from this perspective the more I realize how comprehensive the view is. In my opinion, the view stands on its own merits.

Since the Scriptures were written primarily from Israel's perspective from beginning to end (Moses to John), I see it as a story of covenants. So, the New Testament is about the transition from the Old Covenant age to the New Covenant age, from Moses to Messiah. Eschatology is not about the end of the planet as the futurist imagines, but it was COVENANT ESCHATOLOGY.

This explains the consistent imminent language of all NT writers. The arrival of Messiah signaled the last days of OC Israel and the fulfillment of OT prophecies. The believing remnant of Israel eagerly expected the consummation of the NC age at the destruction and removal of the harlot, Old Covenant Israel. We believe this occurred in the years leading up to AD 70.

I understand the fact that many futurists are not comfortable, and would disagree, with this view, but I'm convinced it is firmly based on Scripture.

May God bless the pursuit of truth.

A New World said:

Nothing unclean can enter it but those outside can obviously have a negative affect on those within. The church has peace with God but still needs our prayers for peace with our fellow man as the gospel moves forward in this world.

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Which has absolutely nothing to do with the simple truth that Psalm 122 speaks of The Jerusalem which is on earth, the city of the great King.

ThatTrueLight said:

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the simple truth that Psalm 122 speaks of The Jerusalem which is on earth, the city of the great King.

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I think Scripture clearly speaks of two Jerusalems. There was the natural earthly Jerusalem that represented the Old Covenant system. Then there was the spiritual heavenly Jerusalem from above, the New Jerusalem, which represented the New Covenant bride of Christ.

Paul used an allegory to explain this concept in Galatians chapter four. He associated Hagar, Ishmael, Mt. Sinai, and slavery with the Old Covenant and his then present city of Jerusalem. He then associated Sarah, Isaac, and freedom with the Jerusalem from above, the New Jerusalem. This would become the New Covenant system.

He told the believers that they were children of promise which meant they were free from the bondage to the present system and were members by faith of the new city from above. He then reminded them that just as at that time those of the flesh persecuted those of the spirit, so it was in their day. The unbelievers of Old Covenant Israel were persecuting those who were coming to Messiah in the last days.

Then Paul quoted Genesis 21:10 ..."Drive out this maid and her son, for the son of this maid shall not be an heir with my son Isaac."

In this allegory the maid, the bondwoman, represented the old city of Jerusalem, the Law, the Old Covenant system. She would be cast out leaving the promised New Jerusalem, "the mother of us all," as the sole representative of God's New Covenant people. This event was consistently described in terms of imminence throughout the New Testament.

The old city was judged and destroyed in AD 70 as the new city was fully revealed.
I believe John described it clearly in Rev. 21:2-3
"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them"

A New World said:

The old city was judged and destroyed in AD 70 as the new city was fully revealed.

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So why would it be any different for you, if God judged and destroyed them in AD70?

Are you better than they were?

ThatTrueLight said:

So why would it be any different for you, if God judged and destroyed them in AD70?

Are you better than they were?

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I don't see it as a question of who is better. Our own righteousness is just as much filthy rags in God's sight as theirs. Fortunately, we stand in the righteousness of Christ, fully accepted by God.

My point is this:

The New Testament is about the imminent end of the Old Covenant. It is not about the end of the planet or our modern society.

The Mosaic Covenant age came to its final end in AD 70 at the destruction of Jerusalem, the temple, the priesthood, the unbelieving people etc. That is the context of eschatology.

The New Covenant age under the promised Messiah began in fullness once the Old Covenant system was fully removed, or cast out.

Those who are in Christ under the New Covenant experience peace with God eternally. We live in what they considered the age to come. This age will never end!

A New World said:

I don't see it as a question of who is better.

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Why not? You're Israel and they're not, if He has forsaken that nation then He shall forsake you as well. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

If you're a sincere Christian then the last thing in the world that you want to hear is that God has forsaken the nation of Israel.

Because we would be next..

Think about it for like a second..

Who wants men to think that God forsakes His people.. The rulers of the darkness of this world. That's who..

ThatTrueLight said:

Why not? You're Israel and they're not, if He has forsaken that nation then He shall forsake you as well. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

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The evidence that God did not forsake Israel is the salvation of the faithful remnant in the last days. So, He did not forsake Israel, He saved her!

"Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED" (Rom. 9:27).

Those who are in Christ under the New Covenant will never be forsaken unless God forsakes Jesus. We know that will never happen!

A New World said:

The evidence that God did not forsake Israel is the salvation of the faithful remnant in the last days. So, He did not forsake Israel, He saved her!

"Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED" (Rom. 9:27).

Those who are in Christ under the New Covenant will never be forsaken unless God forsakes Jesus. We know that will never happen!

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Israel is presently cut off from Christ and their house has been left desolate.. That nation is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in just as the Apostle to the Gentiles teaches.. and warns Christians about.. lest they become wise in their own conceits.

It's not the end of the story, there's plenty more to come at the revelation of Jesus Christ..

NOW if you'd like to live in the past and be obsessed with AD70, then that says more than anything else right there.. it's a dead give away every single time.

Why do you think that men constantly rail against the simple truth of Israel being delivered in the time of the end as all the prophets speak to?

Because it doesn't mean anything?

Try again, because that's the truth.

ThatTrueLight said:

Israel is presently cut off from Christ and their house has been left desolate.. That nation is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in just as the Apostle to the Gentiles teaches.. and warns Christians about.. lest they become wise in their own conceits.

It's not the end of the story, there's plenty more to come at the revelation of Jesus Christ..

NOW if you'd like to live in the past and be obsessed with AD70, then that says more than anything else right there.. it's a dead give away every single time.

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The gospel is about God reconciling all men to Himself. The promise to Abraham is fulfilled in Christ. Those who are in Christ, Israelite or non-Israelite, are Abraham's descendants and receive his promises.

Old Covenant Israel became a harlot and was cast out. However, before she was judged God redeemed a remnant out of her. That remnant is the foundation of the New Covenant church, the body of Christ.

Those living in modern Israel have absolutely no connection to the Old Covenant people. Their only hope is to accept the gospel and be saved.

In Christ, under the New Covenant, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:28).

A New World said:

Old Covenant Israel became a harlot and was cast out.

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Then you've believed the lie that God has forsaken them. NOW it's simply a matter of time before He forsakes you because you're not one bit better than they were.

ThatTrueLight said:

Then you've believed the lie that God has forsaken them. NOW it's simply a matter of time before He forsakes you because you're not one bit better than they were.

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I stand with Paul:
"I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin...In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice" (Rom. 11:1,5)

Paul himself was evidence that God had not forsaken Israel. The first century remnant was saved during Israel's last days. That remnant became the very foundation of the church, the New Covenant body of Christ.

No, God did not reject His people. He destroyed the harlot, unbelieving Israel, but He fulfilled His promises to true faithful Israel when He saved the remnant through the gospel.

If God had failed to save the remnant in Israel's last days then one could say He had forsaken His people. But, again, the firstfruits of the gospel were Jewish which is evidence that God was faithful to Israel.