mmksparbud
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Did the Virgin Mary remain a virgin?
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This thread has undergone a clean up. If your post is missing, it is because it is in violation of the site rules or responding to a post that was.
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Open Heart
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If children of God are led by God unto all truth, then how come they can't even agree on basic matters?
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Open Heart
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Well then I guess the spirit is NOT leading them unto all truth, eh.
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I wrote a long article about this. The text can be found at the following links:
- http://www.bubblews.com/news/9958980-did-jesus-have-brothers-and-sisters-part-1
- http://www.bubblews.com/news/9958981-did-jesus-have-brothers-and-sisters-part-2
- http://www.bubblews.com/news/9958985-did-jesus-have-brothers-and-sisters-part-3
- http://www.bubblews.com/news/9958987-did-jesus-have-brothers-and-sisters-part-4
- http://www.bubblews.com/news/9958988-did-jesus-have-brothers-and-sisters-part-5
- http://www.bubblews.com/news/9959094-did-jesus-have-brothers-and-sisters-part-6
- http://www.bubblews.com/news/9959095-did-jesus-have-brothers-and-sisters-part-7
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The passage is John in important because if Mary had other sons, Jesus would not have to have told John "Son, here is your mother".
The belief in Mary's perpetual virginity is not really contradicted by Scripture unless one insists on Biblicism, and reading the Bible outside its historical context. Jesus brothers could well be half-brothers, since by tradition Joseph was a widower.
That word "until" is often misused. It doesn't imply that something is going to happen later out of necessity. It's just a Greek idiom to indicate that when Joseph was betrothed to Mary, Mary was a virgin.
Joseph and Mary were actually not married in the Jewish sense, they were betrothed. That meant Joseph had legal rights in that case, and was considered the legal father of Jesus, but it doesn't constitute the modern concept of marriage.
As for why this was important... denial of her perpetual virginity is impious, because it implies that she who held Godhead in her womb needed to live like a 1950's housewife to justify us and our current cultural prejudices. It's taking something holy and domesticating it for whitebread Anglo-Saxon culture. Having said that, I do not view it as something central to the faith. I just seem denial of it as a sign of spiritual sickness cause by humanism.
Let's look at it this way. Scripture is silent on the question as to whether Jesus had a wife! Imagine that! Lets say some guy comes around and starts talking about a novel doctrine that Jesus had a wife, after all it is the normal way to be a guy in our culture today, who wouldn't wan to get married? Imagine living all alone, no sex. How weird, huh? Why would anybody want to believe Jesus was single all his life?
You see where that sort of thing goes? We interpret the Bible through our cultural prejudices, instead of letting the culture inform us. In that culture there were a lot of reasons to be betrothed to someone other than a sexual interest. Arabs still did that until the very modern period in fact, it was a form of social welfare and a social favor. traditionally this is how the story of Mary's perpetual virginity is understood.
The belief in Mary's perpetual virginity is not really contradicted by Scripture unless one insists on Biblicism, and reading the Bible outside its historical context. Jesus brothers could well be half-brothers, since by tradition Joseph was a widower.
That word "until" is often misused. It doesn't imply that something is going to happen later out of necessity. It's just a Greek idiom to indicate that when Joseph was betrothed to Mary, Mary was a virgin.
Joseph and Mary were actually not married in the Jewish sense, they were betrothed. That meant Joseph had legal rights in that case, and was considered the legal father of Jesus, but it doesn't constitute the modern concept of marriage.
As for why this was important... denial of her perpetual virginity is impious, because it implies that she who held Godhead in her womb needed to live like a 1950's housewife to justify us and our current cultural prejudices. It's taking something holy and domesticating it for whitebread Anglo-Saxon culture. Having said that, I do not view it as something central to the faith. I just seem denial of it as a sign of spiritual sickness cause by humanism.
Let's look at it this way. Scripture is silent on the question as to whether Jesus had a wife! Imagine that! Lets say some guy comes around and starts talking about a novel doctrine that Jesus had a wife, after all it is the normal way to be a guy in our culture today, who wouldn't wan to get married? Imagine living all alone, no sex. How weird, huh? Why would anybody want to believe Jesus was single all his life?
You see where that sort of thing goes? We interpret the Bible through our cultural prejudices, instead of letting the culture inform us. In that culture there were a lot of reasons to be betrothed to someone other than a sexual interest. Arabs still did that until the very modern period in fact, it was a form of social welfare and a social favor. traditionally this is how the story of Mary's perpetual virginity is understood.
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mmksparbud
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The Jesus had a wife argument doesn't hold water--that has already been said. And that can be contradicted just by using the culture at the time. He had to rake a year off work after the marriage, and he had to build a house first. Humanism is what brings about the concept that Jesus Christ, who was laid in a manger, had to have a sinless mother when the bible says all have sinned. Humanism says Mary had Christ from her side!--just to keep her a virgin!
And in that culture, if a maid was to remain a virgin, her father had to agree to it, and then she would not have been betrothed at all. The object of marriage was children, a woman suffered great shame to have no children if married. And the angel told Joseph to not be afraid to take her as his WIFE--not just betrothed. It was a marriage, she is called Joseph's wife in scripture. It's not even necessary to prove whether or not she had other children. There is no scriptural evidence that she remained a virgin, that is even stated in the catechism. It's something the church decided on many years down the road. This is taking something that is a normal human experience and making it unwholesome, it is taking a normal woman, and turning her into a goddess. Her position demands respect, not adoration. Acceptance of this veneration is caused by "spiritual sickness caused by humanism." There is one intercessor between God and man, Christ. None other.
Christ came to be fully human, he got that from her--it is the presence of Christ that makes anything holy--and Christ can stand in a cesspool and it would become pure and holy while He was there. However, it is your right to believe whatever you want.
And in that culture, if a maid was to remain a virgin, her father had to agree to it, and then she would not have been betrothed at all. The object of marriage was children, a woman suffered great shame to have no children if married. And the angel told Joseph to not be afraid to take her as his WIFE--not just betrothed. It was a marriage, she is called Joseph's wife in scripture. It's not even necessary to prove whether or not she had other children. There is no scriptural evidence that she remained a virgin, that is even stated in the catechism. It's something the church decided on many years down the road. This is taking something that is a normal human experience and making it unwholesome, it is taking a normal woman, and turning her into a goddess. Her position demands respect, not adoration. Acceptance of this veneration is caused by "spiritual sickness caused by humanism." There is one intercessor between God and man, Christ. None other.
Christ came to be fully human, he got that from her--it is the presence of Christ that makes anything holy--and Christ can stand in a cesspool and it would become pure and holy while He was there. However, it is your right to believe whatever you want.
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You can dismiss the ancient traditions of the Church, held by pious men and women, but that same type of humanism could be used to deconstruct the essential mysteries of the faith, such as the Virgin Birth, Jesus miracles, the Resurrection and the Ascension. Do you really want to wed yourself to it?
According to the tradition, Mary was an orphan, she had no father or mother alive to arrange anything, so she was cared for by Jewish elders. Joachim and Anna were very old and Anna was barren, so they died when she was still young.
Ancient Jewish culture was not necessarily like the Reformed or Orthodox Judaism people often encounter today. You would be surprised what first centuries Jews believed and practiced- they variously believed in praying for the dead, talismans to ward off evil, "magic" and the manipulation of angels (mentioned even in the Bible), seeking the intercessions of righteous but deceased Jews (tzadikim), such as Rachel, whom they viewed as closer to God. There was in addition, no one school of Judaism. Some forms of Judaism were extremely ascetic and apocalyptic expectations were common. The priestly temple cult mentioned so much in the Old Testament was only part of the picture for Jews living in the first century.
If there is only one intercessor between God and man, and this disqualifies the Virgin Mary from praying for you, then its wrong to ever ask any friend to pray for you.
FWIW, the Lutheran confessions specifically states that Mary and the saints pray for the church and it also acknowledges the tradition of her ever-virgin status. It's not true this is just a Roman Catholic vs. Protestant issue. At one time most of the Christian world, after the reformation, believed it.
I would never say traditional Marian beliefs are strictly necessary for the individual to be saved, but I do see them as pious. Devotion to the saints can reflect on our devotion to God, since it is God's grace which made them holy.
I don't see veneration as forbidden in the Bible or in much of Christian tradition. People put their hand over their heart all the time and Christian peoples used to bow before kings. Never ever did people think that meant they were breaking any commandments.
According to the tradition, Mary was an orphan, she had no father or mother alive to arrange anything, so she was cared for by Jewish elders. Joachim and Anna were very old and Anna was barren, so they died when she was still young.
Ancient Jewish culture was not necessarily like the Reformed or Orthodox Judaism people often encounter today. You would be surprised what first centuries Jews believed and practiced- they variously believed in praying for the dead, talismans to ward off evil, "magic" and the manipulation of angels (mentioned even in the Bible), seeking the intercessions of righteous but deceased Jews (tzadikim), such as Rachel, whom they viewed as closer to God. There was in addition, no one school of Judaism. Some forms of Judaism were extremely ascetic and apocalyptic expectations were common. The priestly temple cult mentioned so much in the Old Testament was only part of the picture for Jews living in the first century.
If there is only one intercessor between God and man, and this disqualifies the Virgin Mary from praying for you, then its wrong to ever ask any friend to pray for you.
FWIW, the Lutheran confessions specifically states that Mary and the saints pray for the church and it also acknowledges the tradition of her ever-virgin status. It's not true this is just a Roman Catholic vs. Protestant issue. At one time most of the Christian world, after the reformation, believed it.
I would never say traditional Marian beliefs are strictly necessary for the individual to be saved, but I do see them as pious. Devotion to the saints can reflect on our devotion to God, since it is God's grace which made them holy.
I don't see veneration as forbidden in the Bible or in much of Christian tradition. People put their hand over their heart all the time and Christian peoples used to bow before kings. Never ever did people think that meant they were breaking any commandments.
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mmksparbud
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I know all the arguments for it--just no way I can believe it. First of all, I do not believe you go to heaven or hell after death, I believe you have to wait until judgment day when everyone finds out where they're going. I believe the bible when it says the dead know not anything, that David is dead and buried and in his grave and that he has not ascended to the heavens, and all the others that are plain about the state of the dead. Those have been posted many times., but people choose to ignore them, which is their right. I do not believe in asking the dead for anything, and having people pray for you is quite different---they're alive. There are, no doubt, many things the Jews did that may not have been according to the old testament, which in no way makes them right. God said clearly do not speak to the dead or inquire of them and that is what I go buy--not what scholars have decided is ok. The Jews also believed in a lot of things that Christ came to clear up. Like when he told them they were in error and there is no marriage in heaven, that sin is more then not doing something, it is in the heart, the mind,, when He said to look at a woman with lust in the heart you have committed adultery. Obeying God from love is what counts, not the letter of the law. Christ called the Pharisees hypocrites, He was not impressed with how learned they were.
Mary may have been an orphan, maybe not. Bible doesn't say anything about that either. And again, the word saints in the new testament does not mean the dead--it means holy, set aside, we are all considered saints when we accept Christ.
The miracles of Jesus of all clearly stated, not question about them, nor the Resurrection and Ascension. We can speculate about things not written in the bible, but to make doctrines of those speculations, is not an area I want to go to.
Mary may have been an orphan, maybe not. Bible doesn't say anything about that either. And again, the word saints in the new testament does not mean the dead--it means holy, set aside, we are all considered saints when we accept Christ.
The miracles of Jesus of all clearly stated, not question about them, nor the Resurrection and Ascension. We can speculate about things not written in the bible, but to make doctrines of those speculations, is not an area I want to go to.
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How do you explain Christ talking to Moses and Elijah?
No one in Christ is ever dead, ever. John 11:26 "...everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.." This may not make sense at first but it is a mystery understood through faith.
Other than that, I have no desire to beat that dead horse. But talking about those who have gone to their repose in Christ as merely "dead" does no justice to the faith that is in us. Soul sleep was a non-existent belief until the Seventh Day Adventists.
Considering this forum is on Mariology and Hagiography.. .why are you interested in this stuff? Just to argue to prove some point? You first need to show me how Seventh-Day Adventists have any authority to interpret Scripture at all against the consensus of 1800 years of Church history.
No one in Christ is ever dead, ever. John 11:26 "...everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.." This may not make sense at first but it is a mystery understood through faith.
Other than that, I have no desire to beat that dead horse. But talking about those who have gone to their repose in Christ as merely "dead" does no justice to the faith that is in us. Soul sleep was a non-existent belief until the Seventh Day Adventists.
Considering this forum is on Mariology and Hagiography.. .why are you interested in this stuff? Just to argue to prove some point? You first need to show me how Seventh-Day Adventists have any authority to interpret Scripture at all against the consensus of 1800 years of Church history.
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There are passages in the bible which speak of dead who are are living and others which speak of living who are dead, thus interpretation of scripture regarding the dead is not so cut and dry.
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mmksparbud
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Elijah was translated without ever seeing death--Moses was raised from the dead
(Jud 1:9) Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
A lowly fisherman who can read has the authority to listen and hear the Holy Spirit. So did a lowly carpenter who contradicted years of rabbinical authority.
Is this for those who believe as you do only?---I thought this was a forum for others also--I am not the only one who doesn't believe as you do by the posts. Just presenting the other side and wondering if there was any new theories about this. I have Catholic friends, a few for over 26 years. I have a soft spot for nuns, they took care of us (4 kids) once in a while when mother could not--however, she said never to let them baptize me!!
We all have been given instructions by Christ--
(Mat 28:19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
(Mat 28:20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Just presenting another point of view---you know--variety is the spice of life. Never fear--I can't convert anybody---that's up to the Holy Spirit.
I wasn't derailing the thread--just presenting one reason to not be communing with the "departed'---The bible says not to.
Course, you can always quote the verse that states we are to pray to and petition for God's favors from the dead.
(Jud 1:9) Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
A lowly fisherman who can read has the authority to listen and hear the Holy Spirit. So did a lowly carpenter who contradicted years of rabbinical authority.
Is this for those who believe as you do only?---I thought this was a forum for others also--I am not the only one who doesn't believe as you do by the posts. Just presenting the other side and wondering if there was any new theories about this. I have Catholic friends, a few for over 26 years. I have a soft spot for nuns, they took care of us (4 kids) once in a while when mother could not--however, she said never to let them baptize me!!
We all have been given instructions by Christ--
(Mat 28:19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
(Mat 28:20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Just presenting another point of view---you know--variety is the spice of life. Never fear--I can't convert anybody---that's up to the Holy Spirit.
I wasn't derailing the thread--just presenting one reason to not be communing with the "departed'---The bible says not to.
Course, you can always quote the verse that states we are to pray to and petition for God's favors from the dead.
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The simple fact that so many miracles occur in the Orthodox Church through the intercessions of those departed, who God has been pleased to reveal as His close friends (those we refer to as Saints) makes it very clear to me that the SDA's and others, misinterpret what the scriptures say about the dead. I know from personal experience and from testimonies of close friends, plus the myriad accounts that have been recorded by other Orthodox Christians, that the Saints are very much alive, very aware, and very active in praying to God for our needs.
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You are in error! That which you repeat here is the tale as told by the Holy Roman Church, not the One, Holy Catholic Church, but simply a sect within the Body of Christ!
The teachings of the Body of Christ are entered in Scripture, wherein we find the Revelation of Christ to the Saints, (Ep, Jude), this encloses everything necessary to salvation and which is interpreted, explained and completed by the Holy fathers of the Seven Ecumenical Councils of the first 800 years.
One at least of these Councils found that The Lady Mary, is the Theotokos, or Mother of God, other Councils found that ,'the Lady,' was and is, ,'All Holy, Immaculate and Ever Virgin' . Immaculate ,does not encompass Her Conception, it is thought that at some time in Her early life her sins were wiped clean.
The Church in England, all through the reformation not only accepted the idea of The Lady Mary being Ever Virgin, but actually taught it. It was only the decay of religion after the so called,'Glorious Revolution,' that the unbelief grew. Incidentally, the High Church Bishops of the 16/17th, Cent, adopted the idea of mortals, discussing the private affairs of Our Lord's Mother in this way as unseemly she being the ,'Mother of God,' the usuall discussion was on the lines of Mary's other Children being Joseph's sons, The Lady Mary being step mother, while Jesus was of course in the same relationship as step brother to S.Joseph's sons.
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Open Heart
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Honestly, you are chewing the guy out for *correctly* referring to our church as the Catholic Church? "Roman Catholic" is slang after all. I realize you Anglicans like to think of yourselves as catholics as well, and that's all fine and well. But it is kind of silly to knock your head against the legitimate name of another church.
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Some time ago I received a communication regarding matters, concerning Anglicans and Unity. Interesting and unsought, but polite and friendly, the point is that it was headlined ,'Holy Roman Church'! You can't have it both ways! 'Roman Catholic is slang'? It is on the Notice Boards on most of the Roman Churches around here. Papist is slang, Romanist is slang but, 'Roman Catholic',? Never!
Further more according to my understanding the ,One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church encompasses a number of ,'particular ,'churches, Rome as well as the Church in England being amongst them!Anglicans refer to themselves traditionally, as, A Catholic Communion within the Body of Christ!
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