OSASers choose to reject Jesus’ warnings about losing salvation!

Hammster

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For the past few years, I have been studying Mormon soteriology, and there are no similarities between Mormon soteriology and the soteriology taught by Arminians—whose theology I have been researching for 18 years and teaching for 11 years.
Based on my recent experience with Mormons, I'd have to question either your understanding of Mormonism or of Arminianism. Perhaps you should go to the Unorthodox area and discuss it with them. It would be enlightening.

It is in the posts by Hammster where we are reading outrageous claims and refusals to provide any documentation for the claims. It is in the posts by Hammster where we find an absence of evidence of familiarity with either the teaching of James Arminius or the teaching of John Calvin.
Where have I made an outrageous claim?


Implying that in the writings from the Council of Orange we find the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints is a seriously false and slanderous implication. Moreover, the writings from the Council of Orange have nothing to do with the topic at hand, and suggesting that anyone should read them at this time is disingenuous.
I guess Jan can decide that for himself. He should be intrigued by your effort to dissuade him from reading them.
 
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OzSpen

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I'm just telling you my experience. Discussing Soteriology with them is like discussing it with Arminians who actually discuss it.

This says more about your lack of understanding of an Arminian approach to soteriology.

To this point you have provided NO evidence of how Arminian and Mormon soteriology are similar. Zero!
 
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Hammster

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This says more about your lack of understanding of an Arminian approach to soteriology.

To this point you have provided NO evidence of how Arminian and Mormon soteriology are similar. Zero!

Where did I say I was going to prove it?

But don't take my word for it. Go over to the Unorthodox area and engage them. Then you'll see what I'm talking about. I'm sure you won't. I don't see anyone from soteriology over there except a couple other Calvinists. But it would be more productive than arguing with me.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Based on my recent experience with Mormons, I'd have to question either your understanding of Mormonism or of Arminianism. Perhaps you should go to the Unorthodox area and discuss it with them. It would be enlightening.

My nearly four years of studying Mormon soteriology included, among other things, reading and interacting with hundreds of posts by Mormons in the Unorthodox Doctrinal Discussion forum here on CF and on other message boards.

Where have I made an outrageous claim?

The claim by Hammster that Mormon “theology is the same as Arminians when it comes to salvation, with very few difference” is not only an outrageous claim, it is a ridiculously false and slanderous claim.

I guess Jan can decide that for himself. He should be intrigued by your effort to dissuade him from reading them.

In this post, Hammster is making another outrageous and ridiculously false statement. I have made no effort of any kind to dissuade Jan from reading anything.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Ham, Just one comment here.

I see the Arminian audience here, keeps demanding proof prior to Augustine.

I must say that the Anti-Nicene fathers are not entirely trustworthy.

Even in their own words, teaching, etc, they conflagulated texts.

Marvin Vincent shows what Patristic quotations are worth:



Vincent - History of Textual Criticism

So, we are at another impasse.

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean has quoted here from the fine Biblical scholar Marvin Vincent where Vincent is showing that some of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers did not always quote from the Scriptures as accurately as he would have preferred. Indeed, they often paraphrased them just like the Apostle Paul paraphrased the Old Testament in his quotations—or even misquoted them as the Apostle Paul sometimes did. Does this mean that Paul was “not entirely trustworthy,” or that the theology he was teaching was inaccurate? Of course it does not—and neither does it mean that the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers were “not entirely trustworthy,” or that the theology they were teaching was inaccurate.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Inconsistancy in the writings of the early church fathers:

Source

Oh well, out to supper with my lovely wife.

God Bless

Till all are one.

The link that was provided by DeaconDean for his “source” did not work for me, but I was able to find the “source” here: Bible Question: Did the early church believe "Once Saved Always Saved"?

I then had to find the quotes in context to find out what the author was actually saying. Unfortunately, the “source” did not accurately provide the sources for the quotes. I was able, however, to locate them. They are from a work known as The Pastor of Hermas.
Here they are, in context, in the order that they were given in the “source.”

Book Second. — Commandments.
Commandment Seventh. — On Fearing God, and Not Fearing the Devil.

“Fear,” said he, “the Lord, and keep His commandments. (Ecc_12:13) For if you keep the commandments of God, you will be powerful in every action, and every one of your actions will be incomparable. For, fearing the Lord, you will do all things well. This is the fear which you ought to have, that you may be saved. But fear not the devil; for, fearing the Lord, you will have dominion over the devil, for there is no power in him. But he in whom there is no power ought on no account to be an object of fear; but He in whom there is glorious power is truly to be feared. For every one that has power ought to be feared; but he who has not power is despised by all. Fear, therefore, the deeds of the devil, since they are wicked. For, fearing the Lord, you will not do these deeds, but will refrain from them. For fears are of two kinds: for if you do not wish to do that which is evil, fear the Lord, and you will not do it; but, again, if you wish to do that which is good, fear the Lord, and you will do it. Wherefore the fear of the Lord is strong, and great, and glorious. Fear, then, the Lord, and you will live to Him, and as many as fear Him and keep His commandments will live to God.” “Why,” said I, “sir, did you say in regard to those that keep His commandments, that they will live to God?” “Because,” says he, “all creation fears the Lord, but all creation does not keep His commandments. They only who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as to those who keep not His commandments, there is no life in them.”

Book Second
Commandments
Commandment Seventh


Book Second. — Commandments.
Commandment Fifth. — Of Sadness of Heart, and of Patience.
Chap. I.

“Be patient,” said he, “and of good understanding, and you will rule over every wicked work, and you will work all righteousness. For if you be patient, the Holy Spirit that dwells in you will be pure. He will not be darkened by any evil spirit, but, dwelling in a broad region, he will rejoice and be glad; and with the vessel in which he dwells he will serve God in gladness, having great peace within himself. But if any outburst of anger take place, forthwith the Holy Spirit, who is tender, is straitened, not having a pure place, and He seeks to depart. For he is choked by the vile spirit, and cannot attend on the Lord as he wishes, for anger pollutes him. For the Lord dwells in long-suffering, but the devil in anger. The two spirits, then, when dwelling in the same habitation, are at discord with each other, and are troublesome to that man in whom they dwell. (Jam_3:11) For if an exceedingly small piece of wormwood be taken and put into a jar of honey, is not the honey entirely destroyed, and does not the exceedingly small piece of wormwood entirely take away the sweetness of the honey, so that it no longer affords any gratification to its owner, but has become bitter, and lost its use? But if the wormwood be not put into the honey, then the honey remains sweet, and is of use to its owner. You see, then, that patience is sweeter than honey, and useful to God, and the Lord dwells in it. But anger is bitter and useless. Now, if anger be mingled with patience, the patience is polluted, and its prayer is not then useful to God.” “I should like, sir,” said I, “to know the power of anger, that I may guard myself against it.” And he said, “If you do not guard yourself against it, you and your house lose all hope of salvation. Guard yourself, therefore, against it. For I am with you, and all will depart from it who repent with their whole heart. For I will be with them, and I will save them all. For all are justified by the most holy angel.

Book Second
Commandments
Commandment Fifth
Chapter I


Book Second. — Commandments.
Commandment Fifth. — Of Sadness of Heart, and of Patience.
Chap. II.

“Hear now,” said he, “how wicked is the action of anger, and in what way it overthrows the servants of God by its action, and turns them from righteousness. But it does not turn away those who are full of faith, nor does it act on them, for the power of the Lord is with them. It is the thoughtless and doubting that it turns away. For as soon as it sees such men standing stedfast, it throws itself into their hearts, and for nothing at all the man or woman becomes embittered on account of occurrences in their daily life, as for instance on account of their food, or some superfluous word that has been uttered, or on account of some friend, or some gift or debt, or some such senseless affair. For all these things are foolish and empty and unprofitable to the servants of God. But patience is great, and mighty, and strong, and calm in the midst of great enlargement, joyful, rejoicing, free from care, glorifying God at all times, having no bitterness in her, and abiding continually meek and quiet. Now this patience dwells with those who have complete faith. But anger is foolish, and fickle, and senseless. Now, of folly is begotten bitterness, and of bitterness anger, and of anger frenzy. This frenzy, the product of so many evils, ends in great and incurable sin. For when all these spirits dwell in one vessel in which the Holy Spirit also dwells, the vessel cannot contain them, but overflows. The tender Spirit, then, not being accustomed to dwell with the wicked spirit, nor with hardness, withdraws from such a man, and seeks to dwell with meekness and peacefulness. Then, when he withdraws from the man in whom he dwelt, the man is emptied of the righteous Spirit; and being henceforward filled with evil spirits, (Mat_12:45; Luk_11:26) he is in a state of anarchy in every action, being dragged hither and thither by the evil spirits, and there is a complete darkness in his mind as to everything good. This, then, is what happens to all the angry. Wherefore do you depart from that most wicked spirit anger, and put on patience, and resist anger and bitterness, and you will be found in company with the purity which is loved by the Lord. Take care, then, that you neglect not by any chance this commandment: for if you obey this commandment, you will be able to keep all the other commandments which I am to give you. Be strong, then, in these commandments, and put on power, and let all put on power, as many as wish to walk in them.”

Book Second
Commandments
Commandment Fifth
Chapter II


The alleged inconsistency does not exist. In the first two quotes, the author teaches that believers can lose their salvation. In the third quote, the author teaches that the action of anger can overthrow the servants of God, and turn them from righteousness—but that in the case of believers who are full of faith, it does not turn them away. This is precisely what Arminius taught—those believers who are full of faith are secure in Christ, but believers who cease to be full of faith can be turned away from Christ, and consequently lose their salvation.
 
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Hammster

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My nearly four years of studying Mormon soteriology included, among other things, reading and interacting with hundreds of posts by Mormons in the Unorthodox Doctrinal Discussion forum here on CF and on other message boards.



The claim by Hammster that Mormon “theology is the same as Arminians when it comes to salvation, with very few difference” is not only an outrageous claim, it is a ridiculously false and slanderous claim.



In this post, Hammster is making another outrageous and ridiculously false statement. I have made no effort of any kind to dissuade Jan from reading anything.

This post just doesn't reflect reality.
 
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nobdysfool

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Tens of millions of man hours have been spent investigating the teachings of Calvin, and today we have hugely more evidence that his theology was aberrational than we have evidence that the teachings of Charles Taze Russell and the teachings of Joseph Smith were aberrational. This research has been published in hundreds of thousands of documents in scores of languages. Nonetheless, both Russell and Smith have millions of followers who are just as sure of the truth of their beliefs as are Calvinists sure of the truth of their beliefs. This is not to say that Calvinism is outside the bounds of orthodox Christianity, but only that the quantity of evidence against the truth of Calvinism is hugely greater than the quantity of evidence against the truth of the teachings of Russell and Smith.

Moreover, of the five points of theology known today as the five points of Calvinism, the evidence against the point known as the Perseverance of the Saints is the greatest. Not only is there a lack of any evidence that anyone at all, prior to the Protestant Reformation, understood any of the verses or passages in the Bible to teach or support the doctrine, but we have in the writings of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers numerous examples of the teaching of conditional security.

Long on assertion, very short on documentation backing it up. Same as it ever was....
 
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OzSpen

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In this post, Hammster is making yet another false statement. Moreover, as is always the case, he provides no evidence to support his false statement.

I wish you well in getting something more than one-liners!
 
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Hammster

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I'm not going to make any sort of argument that the soteriology in Mormonism is similar to Arminianism. I'm just stating my opinion. Perhaps the Mormons haven't been clear. I cannot be sure.

But I think it would behoove the members here to engage the Mormons here, not to win an argument, or to prove me wrong. But because they are in danger of hell. Please don't make proving me wrong more important than that.
 
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nobdysfool

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I wish you well in getting something more than one-liners!

We can do without the snarky one-liners. Both sides are good at that, not just Calvinists, or any one individual, as is implied here. It needs to stop, or at least stop being a point of contention. It has been said that brevity is the soul of wit. i believe it can also be the soul of truth.

Let's not get side-tracked into complaints about the use of logic (or it's disuse). Most people are part logical, part illogical. Mankind has the unique ability to hold to two or more conflicting ideas at the same time, and make no attempt to resolve the conflict.

Complaining about it serves no useful purpose. Even those who consider themselves most logical can be illogical, and not see it. Let it be.
 
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StevieBlunder

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Romans 7, once a believer becomes saved it isn't his soul that is sinning anymore but the flesh. All you're doing is bumming Christians out to the most extreme level and we already have enough problems as it is being Christians in this dark world you should be ashamed. If this is true than you could die in your sleep having a perverted dream like I often do and go to hell. It is said many times in the bible that we are saved through faith not of works. Not sinning would be a work, all our righteousness are as filthy rags.

Also You can give me 12 verses that you think are talking about losing your salvation but I can give you 100 that say otherwise here: What Does the Bible Say About Assurance Of Salvation?

So how about reading the Bible and help your spiritual life instead of not reading it and hurting a bunch of other Christians with false doctrine. So much lies about the Bible on the internet it makes me sick.
 
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JLB777

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Romans 7, once a believer becomes saved it isn't his soul that is sinning anymore but the flesh. All you're doing is bumming Christians out to the most extreme level and we already have enough problems as it is being Christians in this dark world you should be ashamed. If this is true than you could die in your sleep having a perverted dream like I often do and go to hell. It is said many times in the bible that we are saved through faith not of works. Not sinning would be a work, all our righteousness are as filthy rags.

Also You can give me 12 verses that you think are talking about losing your salvation but I can give you 100 that say otherwise here: What Does the Bible Say About Assurance Of Salvation?

So how about reading the Bible and help your spiritual life instead of not reading it and hurting a bunch of other Christians with false doctrine. So much lies about the Bible on the internet it makes me sick.


Let's discuss what the scriptures actually say about salvation.


Here is one beautiful verse that teaches us how much God loves us.

38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:38-39


Here is another that teaches us nothing can take us away from God.


27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. John 10:28-29


These are scriptures that encourage us that God loves us and that no one can take us away from God.



There are also scriptures that warn us as well.



12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;


we have become partakers of Christ if... we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.


JLB
 
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EmSw

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Romans 7, once a believer becomes saved it isn't his soul that is sinning anymore but the flesh. All you're doing is bumming Christians out to the most extreme level and we already have enough problems as it is being Christians in this dark world you should be ashamed. If this is true than you could die in your sleep having a perverted dream like I often do and go to hell. It is said many times in the bible that we are saved through faith not of works. Not sinning would be a work, all our righteousness are as filthy rags.

Mark 7:20-22-
20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.


All sin proceeds from the heart.

Those who live according to the flesh will reap corruption, not everlasting life (Galatians 6:8).
 
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Brother Chris

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Mark 7:20-22-
20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.


All sin proceeds from the heart.

Those who live according to the flesh will reap corruption, not everlasting life (Galatians 6:8).

You are right, because this gives evidence that such a person is not saved, not a Christian, not redeemed, not born again, and therefore will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Compare to Romans 8:9,

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Clearly, those who are saved do not walk in the flesh, but in the Spirit, because the Spirit of God lives inside of them. Again, you must understand what true conversion is and what the evidence of that is.
 
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FreeGrace2

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God gives the free gift of salvation to those who believe in Jesus and His gospel.
Hereby, they actually enter into a covenant between themselves and God.
Their part in this “new covenant” is to continue believing, which includes loving Him
enough to obey His commandments, and trusting that He will fulfil His promises …
just as long as they obey His commandments.
However, (as with any covenant) they can choose to break this covenant with God.

Here’s a nice baker’s dozen of Jesus’ warnings:


Matt 7:21-27 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father in heaven … But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine,
and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended,
the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

Matt 10:22 (Matt 24:13, Mark 13:13) “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake.
But he who endures to the end will be saved.”

Matt 25:45-46 “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it (good deeds)
to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these (the unrighteous)
will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life

Mark 8:34-37 (Matt 10:38-39, Matt 16:24-26, Luke 9:23-25) “Whoever desires to come after Me,
let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life
will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. For what will it profit
a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul (is himself destroyed or lost, Luke 9:25)?
Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?”

Mark 9:43-47 (Matt 5:29-30, Matt 18:8-9) “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to
enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched
… And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame,
rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched
… And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God
with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire”

Mark 11:25-26, Matt 6:14-15, Matt 18:21-35 “… if you have anything against anyone,
forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses.
But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses.”

Luke 14:28-33 “For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost,
whether he has enough to finish it — lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish,
all who see it begin to mock him, saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish’?
… So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.”

John 10:27-28 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them
eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.”

John 12:25 “He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life

John 15:2-6 “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away …
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
… He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.”

Revelation 14:12 “Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who
keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”

Revelation 21:7-8 “He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God
and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers,
sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the
lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Revelation 22:14-15 “Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right
to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers
and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.”.
All of this is a misunderstanding of the verses. None of them mentions salvation or eternal life.

We know from Romans 6:23 that eternal life is a gift of God. We also know that God's gifts are irrevocable from Rom 11:29.

So, let's consider some straightforward logic. If A = B, and B = C, then A = C.

So, eternal life {A} is a gift of God {B} from Rom 6:23. iow, eternal life equals a gift of God. If A = B.
And God's gifts {B} are irrevocable {C}. iow, God's gifts are irrevocable. and B = C.

Therefore, eternal life {A} is irrevocable {C}. Then, A = C.

There is no getting around the truth that Paul wrote. He defined what he meant by gift. All attempts to negate the claim that eternal life is irrevocable must re-define what Paul described as gifts of God.

Because eternal life is irrevocable, it isn't taken back (revoked), lost, forfeited, etc.

Paul defined for us what he meant by 'gift' in Romans:
1:11 spiritual gifts
3:24, 5:15,16,17 justification
6:23 eternal life

These are the ONLY Paul described as gifts before he penned 11:29 where he stated that God's gifts are irrevocable.
 
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