Is there a just war?

That's a tough verse for sure [Mt 5:44]. Jesus tells us to pray for those who persecute us, and I think the context supports turning the other cheek when such persecution results being struck on the cheek (attacked?).

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

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Contextually, Jesus is countering the notion that it's ok to hate our enemy and He gives an example [v44] of how to do the opposite, which is love them instead - "enemy" here being those who hate us (evidenced by their persecution of us) and whom the Israelites of the day hated (and taught each other to hate) because of that persecution.

Of course, this verse (IMHO anyway) doesn't address the various other reasons for "war" - or to be general, engage in violence with others. The reason here is persecution.

What if, say, the life of someone else was on the line? Would this verse condone praying for the person about to commit murder rather than stepping in to help the [soon to be] victim? And what means are available to us in such an act of protection?

To be honest, I don't know.

David was prevented by God from building the new Temple because he was a man of violence [war]

‘You may not build a house for my name, for you are a man of war and have shed blood.’ Yet the Lord God of Israel chose me from all my father's house to be king over Israel forever. I Chron 28:3f

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...yet God had chosen David ['s seed] to be king over Israel.

At the very least, we know God is averse to violence in His children. We can state with certainty that if violence [war] is engaged, such a decision must not be made trivially and the reasons for doing so be serious enough to warrant [engaging in] violence.

We also know that vengeance is NOT one of those valid reasons - which is what I believe Jesus is addressing in Mt 5 - and as Paul addressed to the Romans:

If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. - Romans 12:18ff

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So while we are not permitted to take vengeance for violence [done to whomever], the question remains open, are we permitted to engage in violence, say, to protect the innocent, to prevent further violence? Praying for someone [rather than hating them] after they've committed violence, and treatment of those who have committed violence or who are committed to violence, is different than instruction on how to protect [the innocent] when violence upon them is imminent. Indeed, tough question.

Because he holds fast to me in love, I will deliver him; I will protect him, because he knows my name. Ps 91:14

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PS: you should uncheck the tag on this thread with your personal email - if only for your own protection; but know too that sharing personal email isn't allowed publicly on CF, but you can share it privately with those you wish.

War seems to be contrary to the message Christ taught to His disciples. We are told to turn the other cheek, and yet Revelation tells us that Christ will return as a warrior king to destroy the enemies of His people.

There were wars and people fought because they were attacked.. but when the hebrews came across tribes that would sacrifice humans, children in particular, to Molech/Baal, those God said 'Destroy'.

should give you a chill if you know how many babies have been aborted in this country and the associations made therein also to witchcraft.

One of my favorite bible passages is where God says to the Hebrews in Exodus.. that He will walk before them, and rid the land of their enemies etc.. I would have to look it up for the exact KJV verses.. but the hebrews did not do that.. they started attacking other tribes.. therein may lie the problem. Correct me if I am wrong. but anyway.. In my life.. I look to God. he protects us, he heals us, he provides.. many things go on in this world.. even some say they believe but often they walk another way.. for instance I am not against gun ownership.. but to own a gun for protection would be an insult to the Lord I believe.. in my life, I cannot say for yours.. but it would be saying I do not trust him to protect us.. in which case I am probaby not trusting him to lead us either. etc.

I know that this post is re-opening a very old thread and I will not be disappointed if nobody responds, but I recently came across a video presentation (see link below) made by a brother in a Restoration Movement church which has caused me to ponder afresh the whole idea of a "just war".

I have read from history that the "just war" theory was first put forth by Greek and Roman philosophers, and then placed in a "Christian" context by Augustine and Ambrose. The video surprised me by pointing out how very much some of the well-known early Restoration Movement preachers were against Christians participating in war. This video is definitely worth a watch for anyone interested in this topic, especially as it applies to the Restoration Movement churches.

I will be busy examining the Scriptures to see what they teach on the subject of Christians and warfare.

The link to the video is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiMPJuB6gXA

JohannAT said:

I know that this post is re-opening a very old thread and I will not be disappointed if nobody responds, but I recently came across a video presentation (see link below) made by a brother in a Restoration Movement church which has caused me to ponder afresh the whole idea of a "just war".

I have read from history that the "just war" theory was first put forth by Greek and Roman philosophers, and then placed in a "Christian" context by Augustine and Ambrose. The video surprised me by pointing out how very much some of the well-known early Restoration Movement preachers were against Christians participating in war. This video is definitely worth a watch for anyone interested in this topic, especially as it applies to the Restoration Movement churches.

I will be busy examining the Scriptures to see what they teach on the subject of Christians and warfare.

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Those are good points, with another point being that even regarding the Just War theory, in actual practice no war adheres to the theory. Behind them all, you can find unjust intentions and purposes, and usually the war was honorably avoidable (or had been dishonorably made unavoidable).

Is there a just war?

YES !

Make war on poverty , sickness , avarice , mans inhumanity to his fellow man & the ignorance of EGO worship !

HalleluYAH
Kill them all with LOVE .

Great responses! Definitely a lot of food for thought.

Thank you to both of you.

In this fallen world, it is necessary for earthly kings to use the sword to maintain order in their kingdoms and to increase their power and wealth.

In this fallen world, lions eat lambs, men get divorced, and kings wage war. Romans 13 gives the king permission to do so.

This needs to be understood, however: Permitted does not equal righteous.

In the Mosaic law, God gave permission for divorce, but that does not make divorce righteous--God still hates divorces. And likewise, Say to them, "As surely as I live," declares the Sovereign LORD, "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live.-- Ezekiel 33

Jesus is not a liar: "All who live by the sword will die by the sword."

The early Christians did practice non-violence and refused war. That continued until Constantine gave the Church a stake in the fortunes of the empire. At that point, it became necessary to provide theological justification for the war carried out by the empire because the Church was entangled with the empire.

The Body of Christ is not intended to be entangled in the governments of men. We are citizens of Heaven (Philippians 3:20), aliens in this world (1 Peter 1), pilgrims and sojourners in these nations (1 Peter 2:11). We are not natives.

Romans 13 should not cause confusion about that. When I was active duty military, I spent 13 years overseas. In all these different host nations, the US military had Status of Forces Agreements (SOFAs). There were always three SOFA stipulations upon us:

1. Obey their laws
2. Honor their officials
3. If we lived off-base, pay their taxes.

These stipulations never confused us into thinking we were citizens of those nations. We were always aware that we were deployed there by our commander to perform missions of temporary duration...then we were going home.

Those three stipulations are exactly what Romans 13 tell us as Christians: Obey their laws, honor their officials, pay their taxes. No difference! Romans 13 should not confuse us into thinking we are citizens of these countries. We are still deployed here by the Lord to perform a mission of temporary duration, then we're going home.

As such, we should refrain from the entanglement with earthly government that will put us at odds with the performance of our mission and even against other Christians, for there are Christians nearly everywhere, and should be. If we are doing our mission, there should not be any nation where Christians won't suffer on both sides by war.

^So do you regret your service?

Brokenhill said:

^So do you regret your service?

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And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. -- Romans 8

No. It taught me a lot about the Kingdom of Heaven that civilians don't easily understand. People with military experience--like the centurion whose faith astounded Jesus--can get it.

I think so, certainly WW2 was just

Upper Cut said:

I think so, certainly WW2 was just

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It's hard for me to judge a war as "just" when it was seeded by injustice. Germany, nearly certainly, would have been dissuaded from war by more just treatment after WWI.

RDKirk said:

It's hard for me to judge a war as "just" when it was seeded by injustice. Germany, nearly certainly, would have been dissuaded from war by more just treatment after WWI.

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I agree. I've heard many of my history professors note, and I tend to agree with them, that WWII started in 1918 with the Treaty of Versailles.

This is a good conversation and it's one that I've been thinking about constantly since my conversion in 2001. If there is interest, I would love to get it started again.