The Catholic Church

Jupiter Drops

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Well, basically, the RCC is the original church, and everything else broke off of it, as I'm sure you know. The Catholic Church has become a bit more PC about the wording since Vatican II, but they essentially view you as heretics who have left Paul's Church and need to rejoin the fold, which is accurate from a historical standpoint.

What fun.

RCC isn't the original church.
The orginal church started with the disciples, the 500+ people who received the Holy Spirit, Apostle Paul and the alike.
They should stop trying to capitalize Christianity if that's the case.

The intercession of the saints is really like me asking you to pray for me.


Highly contested.


Unlikely. Veneration of Mary can be found in some of the very early Church Fathers.


But is it really in the scripture????
 
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Saucy

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The intercession of the saints is really like me asking you to pray for me.


Highly contested.


Unlikely. Veneration of Mary can be found in some of the very early Church Fathers.
It's different. You can ask me to pray for you and I can hear you (or read your words). It is one man speaking to another. Millions of people praying to one saint (or Mary) is completely different. It's assuming that one person can hear the prayers of millions at once and interpret them all and be able to speak them all to God. God is already in us, so why take that unnecessary step? It doesn't get them answered quicker or hold more weight. They are no different than me. I couldn't hear, much less fathom, hearing so many prayers at once.

It's almost as if we elevate them to the level of God's omnipotence. But that's only God who is able to do that.

As for the thing about Mary being highly contested...of course it is! Catholics want to believe it so much. The only thing they have told me to contest it is when the bible mentions Jesus' brothers and sister (or when James calls himself Christ's brother) that the Jews didn't have a word for nephew or cousin, etc, in the Hebrew language, so it could easily fit.

But the New Testament wasn't translated from Hebrew. It was translated from Greek and they DO distinguish siblings from non-siblings. Like we know Elizabeth was a relative of Mary. Not her sister, but an aunt? Cousin? I don't remember off hand, but we know John the Baptist and Jesus are cousins.
 
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Saucy

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RCC isn't the original church.
The orginal church started with the disciples, the 500+ people who received the Holy Spirit, Apostle Paul and the alike.
They should stop trying to capitalize Christianity if that's the case.




But is it really in the scripture????
yes, I don't the Catholic church as always claimed to be the original church, but I do not agree. The original church wasn't Catholic. It didn't become that way until many hundreds of years later when the church was Romanized
 
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scraparcs

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That's not the same example. Moses was a pastor of sorts leading his flock. God spoke to him to give him and his people direction. It's different now. We have the Holy Spirit living in us and that gap has been filled by Christ. It wasn't back then. We don't need Mary as any kind of interpreter or special connection to God.

While devotion to Mary plays a huge role in the Catholic Church, I'm not sure it's required.
 
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Cearbhall

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RCC isn't the original church.
The orginal church started with the disciples, the 500+ people who received the Holy Spirit, Apostle Paul and the alike.
That's the same thing, historically. The fracturing didn't even start until 1054, which is impressive, but I suppose people had bigger problems to deal with.
The original church wasn't Catholic. It didn't become that way until many hundreds of years later when the church was Romanized
Catholic literally just means "universal." The word was used quite early.
 
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Rhamiel

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But ask yourselves why we're separate. Why did the Protestant movement begin? Maybe because corrupt Catholic leaders were suppressing, even murdering those who didn't accept their very definitions...that popes ruled as kings and thought they had supreme authority to do things their way. When has the Catholic church tried to apologize for what they did? They killed more people than Hitler, yet when the pope tries to talk about peace, he would rather invite Muslims and Jews to the Vatican instead of trying to repair with their own Christian brothers and sisters.

I don't see how any of this was cause by anything other than people standing up to the church and their self-described ideas of authority and going against what is in the bible.

there have been mistakes made by members of the Catholic Church
but look at the Old Testament, there were evil kings of Israel, people did not just say "well Ahab is an evil king, lets form our own new tribe of Israel"

so while the mistakes were really bad, there are better ways then schism and the creation of sects and division to deal with such things.

the Pope has met with Protestant ministers, I think there was a Lutheran Bishop from Jordan in the Middle East prayer service, he even some American Protestants recently along with Charismatic leaders both Catholic and Protestant
Pope Francis uses smartphone video to urge Christian unity | Religion News Service

Pastor Joel Osteen, Mormon Senator, Other US Leaders Meet With Pope Francis in Rome (VIDEO)

as for "killing more people then hitler" I am not sure that is the most honest way to describe things
are we talking about all wars caused by Catholic countries? just the crusades? the crusades had secular and religious motivations
are we talking about the Inquisition in Spain?

Hitler killed 11 million people in about a decade in the Holocaust, the Spanish Inquisition had a few thousand people sentenced to death after a trial in 400 years. That is like 7 people a year, Texas executes more people then that a year...
so the Hitler analogy does not reflect reality, just trying to stir up emotions
 
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Saucy

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that's the difference. To accept a pope as basically being Christ on earth and have the authority of Christ, to consider them holy, yet they have mostly been corrupt, why would you be part of an organization? How can you possibly know that some of the religious things you hold dear weren't created by evil men?

Like purgatory...totally NOT a biblical concept, but hey, if you pay the church a certain amount of money, they will pray someone out of purgatory. EVIL money making scheme!
 
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Jupiter Drops

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That's the same thing, historically. The fracturing didn't even start until 1054, which is impressive, but I suppose people had bigger problems to deal with.

Arguable, but the Catholic church that we know today isn't the same as the ones back then.
The RCC didn't come into the full developed picture around 2nd to 3rd century.
Jesus was crucified in the 1st century, and that's about the time when the early Christian churches started.
 
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Lord Of The Forest

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But is it really in the scripture????
Naturally.

The intercession of the saints is really like me asking you to pray for me.
It's different. You can ask me to pray for you and I can hear you (or read your words). It is one man speaking to another. Millions of people praying to one saint (or Mary) is completely different. It's assuming that one person can hear the prayers of millions at once and interpret them all and be able to speak them all to God. God is already in us, so why take that unnecessary step? It doesn't get them answered quicker or hold more weight. They are no different than me. I couldn't hear, much less fathom, hearing so many prayers at once.

It's almost as if we elevate them to the level of God's omnipotence. But that's only God who is able to do that.

Hebrews 12:1-2 -- Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.


Highly contested.
As for the thing about Mary being highly contested...of course it is! Catholics want to believe it so much. The only thing they have told me to contest it is when the bible mentions Jesus' brothers and sister (or when James calls himself Christ's brother) that the Jews didn't have a word for nephew or cousin, etc, in the Hebrew language, so it could easily fit.

But the New Testament wasn't translated from Hebrew. It was translated from Greek and they DO distinguish siblings from non-siblings. Like we know Elizabeth was a relative of Mary. Not her sister, but an aunt? Cousin? I don't remember off hand, but we know John the Baptist and Jesus are cousins.
Here is a good explanation which doesn't use the brother/cousin argument.

Unlikely. Veneration of Mary can be found in some of the very early Church Fathers.
And yes, it is biblical...

Luke 1:48: for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant.
For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed[.]
 
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Lord Of The Forest

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Like purgatory...totally NOT a biblical concept, but hey, if you pay the church a certain amount of money, they will pray someone out of purgatory. EVIL money making scheme!
If Purgatory isn't a biblical concept then neither is sanctification--
III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

Source.
 
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Saucy

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Again, that's different. Yes, I'm sure my dad and great grandparents and many other people are watching me. But my dad isn't omnipresent. He probably stops and watches my sister. Then goes and worships the Father. He doesn't have eyes everywhere. Even the devil isn't omnipresent and has demons working for him to get it all done on time. Any one saint or person cannot receive or listen to millions of prayers at once. Nor can he do anything about him. God already hears the prayers before they are uttered. So why pray to or through a person who has no supernatural abilities when you can pray to God directly? I've never pray to a substitute when I have full access to the throne room of God at any time.
 
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Saucy

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If Purgatory isn't a biblical concept then neither is sanctification--


Source.
chapter and verse or it didn't happen. I'm not interested in Catholic church writings. It's already been settled that they have been corrupt at many times throughout history.
 
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Rhamiel

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that's the difference. To accept a pope as basically being Christ on earth and have the authority of Christ, to consider them holy, yet they have mostly been corrupt, why would you be part of an organization? How can you possibly know that some of the religious things you hold dear weren't created by evil men?

Like purgatory...totally NOT a biblical concept, but hey, if you pay the church a certain amount of money, they will pray someone out of purgatory. EVIL money making scheme!

for the first 300 years of Christianity, just about every Bishop of Rome was put to death. yes, some have been bad, just as some of the kings of Israel had been bad, just like some Protestant ministers have been bad, but to say that they have "mostly been corrupt" is way out of line and an overgeneralization.

Do you ask why the prophets of old were part of Israel even though some of their kings had been evil?

as for Purgatory, it is not a scheme, it is a logical and biblical doctrine

1 Corinthians 3:13
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work

this verse shows that the Judgment will be like fire, not just for the wicked but for all

Matthew 5:25-26
25“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny

this verse is odd, not "thrown in prison forever" but "until you have paid the last penny"

Revelation 21:27
Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

but we still have temptations and minor failings on this earth? even those who have been forgiven still have temptations and make mistakes
so we believe that some time between death and heaven, God removes these faults from us...
 
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Rhamiel

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chapter and verse or it didn't happen. I'm not interested in Catholic church writings. It's already been settled that they have been corrupt at many times throughout history.

you have already "proclaimed" that Purgatory is nothing more then a money making scheme...

you assume bad motivations before you even hear the reasons for something
 
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Lord Of The Forest

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Saucy said:
chapter and verse or it didn't happen. I'm not interested in Catholic church writings. It's already been settled that they have been corrupt at many times throughout history.
That's a pretty hasty dismissal as well as a logical fallacy.

However....

I Corinthians 3:12-15 -- Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.


I Peter 1:6-7 -- In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
 
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Saucy

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for the first 300 years of Christianity, just about every Bishop of Rome was put to death. yes, some have been bad, just as some of the kings of Israel had been bad, just like some Protestant ministers have been bad, but to say that they have "mostly been corrupt" is way out of line and an overgeneralization.

Do you ask why the prophets of old were part of Israel even though some of their kings had been evil?

as for Purgatory, it is not a scheme, it is a logical and biblical doctrine

1 Corinthians 3:13
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work

this verse shows that the Judgment will be like fire, not just for the wicked but for all

Matthew 5:25-26
25“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny

this verse is odd, not "thrown in prison forever" but "until you have paid the last penny"

Revelation 21:27
Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

but we still have temptations and minor failings on this earth? even those who have been forgiven still have temptations and make mistakes
so we believe that some time between death and heaven, God removes these faults from us...
Those verses in Matthew are talking about an actual prison and how to deal with someone who is suing you. It has nothing to say about purgatory. So again, it's not mentioned anywhere in the bible. And I can mention several verses like "absent from the body is present with the Lord" or when Christ told the repentant thief that he would be with Him that day in paradise. So I don't see where people get stuck in purgatory and the Catholic church will pray them out for money. That's not a scriptural teaching and it sounds very corrupt to take advantage of grieving people. It's sick actually.

There's a different between a king and someone who is the leader of a church! One man is in full control and can change any doctrine he wants and it's supposed to be as if Christ Himself is doing it. Sounds like a way in for corrupt me to have full control and do as he wishes.
 
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