Pope, Orthodox Patriarch look to new council at Nicea

[InnerPhyre]

Maybe they'll throw in some Islam stuff into the Creed, IP!? Just open the Catholic catechism. They love Islam! Allahu Akbar!

That may be going a bit far.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Think so?

That may be going a bit far.

 

[Shane R]

Let's be realistic. Bartholomew and Francis are both in their 70's. They will probably have returned to dust by the time of this meeting.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

You must be "anti-Catholic," too because you laughed!

Of your anticatholic spectacle.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

We wont, unless we had to recite it in greek in whose case that would be the accurate reading but as long as we recite it in Spanish, Italian, english etc. etc. and we use the verb "Procede" in stead of "Emanate" the accurate reading is "Procedes from the Father and the Son", but if the verb is changed to "Emanate" as the meaning of the Greek text, then we can say "Emanates from the Father", we may add "through the Son"

Yes, that's what they teach now.

Catechism of the Council of Trent, Article VIII:

With regard to the words immediately succeeding: who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, the faithful are to be taught that the Holy Ghost proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son, as from one principle. This truth is proposed for our belief by the Creed of the Church, from which no Christian may depart, and is confirmed by the authority of the Sacred Scriptures and of Councils.

 

[buzuxi02]

I had a feeling this was coming sooner or later, both leaders are great Christians, but I'm sure most Orthodox will not like this announcement. Don't all the Bishops need to agree to a council in the EOC, rather than just the EP? I know he can call a council, but I wonder who will show up.

Well the article says 'ecumenical meeting' not ecumenical council. I imagine representatives of every church that espouses the Nicene creed will be present simply as an anniversary celebration. For this reason, and that its so far off, is why this doesn't rattle me as much as that recent joint document. This will be more of some anniversary get together with a few lectures given and the Turkish authorities vetoing anything that may require Christian leaders 'hanging around' for more than a few days.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yes, that's what they teach now.

Catechism of the Council of Trent, Article VIII:

With regard to the words immediately succeeding: who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, the faithful are to be taught that the Holy Ghost proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son, as from one principle. This truth is proposed for our belief by the Creed of the Church, from which no Christian may depart, and is confirmed by the authority of the Sacred Scriptures and of Councils.

and 4th Lateran council:

We firmly believe and simply confess that there is only one true God, eternal and immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three persons but one absolutely simple essence, substance or nature. The Father is from none, the Son from the Father alone, and the Holy Spirit from both equally, eternally without beginning or end.

and 2nd Council of Lyon

We profess faithfully and devotedly that the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, not as from two principles, but as from one principle; not by two spirations, but by one single spiration.....we, wishing to close the way to such errors, with the approval of the sacred council, condemn and reprove all who presume to deny that the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, or rashly to assert that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as from two principles and not as from one.

 

[ArmyMatt]

By all means, keep changing the Symbol of Faith on a whim. The West is changing everything else every time the wind blows in a different direction.

you can prolly add stuff like indulgences and Limbo to the list as well. I think that manditory celibate clergy will be next on the old temporory chopping block.

 

[Nik0s]

you can prolly add stuff like indulgences and Limbo to the list as well. I think that manditory celibate clergy will be next on the old temporory chopping block.

Don't forget the separation of the elements in the Eucharist

 

[Joseph Hazen]

and 4th Lateran council:

We firmly believe and simply confess that there is only one true God, eternal and immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three persons but one absolutely simple essence, substance or nature. The Father is from none, the Son from the Father alone, and the Holy Spirit from both equally, eternally without beginning or end.

and 2nd Council of Lyon

We profess faithfully and devotedly that the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, not as from two principles, but as from one principle; not by two spirations, but by one single spiration.....we, wishing to close the way to such errors, with the approval of the sacred council, condemn and reprove all who presume to deny that the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, or rashly to assert that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as from two principles and not as from one.

I didn't know about those quotes. The discontinuity is so blatant, I just don't understand it.

 

[Solace Girl]

you can prolly add stuff like indulgences and Limbo to the list as well. I think that manditory celibate clergy will be next on the old temporory chopping block.

To be honest, I think a lot of Catholic laity in the U.S. would not mind those changes at all. Have indulgences been used since the Reformation era? I think I learned more about Limbo from studying Dante than my confirmation classes. As for mandatory celibate clergy, I think the financial aspects of such a transition would delay such an endeavor.

 

[Michie]

Vatican III? Nicea III? Press blind spot 666?

The questions jumped into Twitter in a flash, which is what one would assume would happen when there is a chance that a once-a-millennium news story could be breaking. So Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I and Pope Francis have proposed a 2025 event to mark the great Council of Nicea. Line up, religion-news consumers, to ask your big questions.
​

Vatican III? Nicea III? Press blind spot 666?

 

[ArmyMatt]

To be honest, I think a lot of Catholic laity in the U.S. would not mind those changes at all. Have indulgences been used since the Reformation era? I think I learned more about Limbo from studying Dante than my confirmation classes. As for mandatory celibate clergy, I think the financial aspects of such a transition would delay such an endeavor.

yeah, but that is not the issue. the issue is that it seems that too much stuff in Catholicism can be changed on a dime. indulgences were "brought back" by JPII and I think somewhat lessened under Benedict XVI. Limbo was done away with by Benedict XVI, but there is no doubt it at least was a very common belief back in the day. all these changes make whatever they wanna do at Nicaea seem shallow at best, with nothing actually getting done.

 

[MilesVitae]

Edit: I misread the post I had originally replied to. Ignore.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Not to mention the fact that each one of these popes has this annoying penchant for taking on a cause. By that I mean that Pope John Paul II had the cause of going all over kingdom come with ecumenical hugging sessions and trying to build relations with other churches and even NON-Christian groups (sigh). He felt he had to traverse the globe and build bridges. Amid all that, the liturgy got ten times uglier, the strumming guitars and hand-holding and ballet liturgy dancers and rainbow vestments grew exponentially. He was very pro-life and opposed to the gay agenda, very pro traditional morality, but his ecumenism was spooky!

Then enter Benedict XVI. He wisely knows that the Novus Ordo liturgy is a disgraceful disaster, so he tries to reform it. He works on revamping the language to it and tightening up some of the gestures and priestly actions. He tries his best. He also tries to encourage the return of the Latin Mass, despite the fact that it failed dismally thanks to the fact that most of these Catholic priests have grown up in the wake of the worst disaster in Catholic history--Vatican II, that stopped stressing liturgical piety and Latin, etc.

Then enter Pope Francis, a liberal's ultimate dream. He could care less about liturgical reform of Benedict and he could care less about the moral toughness of John Paul II. He's cozying up to the LGBTers, blasts capitalism, sticks foot in mouth, and has the ugly ecumenical stuff JP2 liked. Worst of all worlds imho.

And all that within the last twenty years!

Like I said, if reunion were to take place, and it won't, there is only one outcome that could be accepted---total, utter, unequivocal, absolute conversion of the West to Holy Orthodoxy dropping the papal innovations, dropping purgatory and indulgences, dropping the horrendous liturgy, dumping the filioque, and hopefully returning the Eucharist from the cardboard-tasting mass-produced discs to the Bread of Christ, the prosfora, in short---revamping the entire mess of the West into something resembling the Church again!

The only thing I think Orthodoxy can truly learn from Catholicism is how to run charities. Honestly Catholic Charities are first-rate, incredible, awesome in how they minister to the poor and disenfranchised. We could also benefit from their pro-life zeal.

So, my proposal is that we control their polity, liturgy, and theology, they run the charities and pro-life stuff! Done!

yeah, but that is not the issue. the issue is that it seems that too much stuff in Catholicism can be changed on a dime. indulgences were "brought back" by JPII and I think somewhat lessened under Benedict XVI. Limbo was done away with by Benedict XVI, but there is no doubt it at least was a very common belief back in the day. all these changes make whatever they wanna do at Nicaea seem shallow at best, with nothing actually getting done.

 

[Columba7]

Then enter Pope Francis, a liberal's ultimate dream. He could care less about liturgical reform of Benedict and he could care less about the moral toughness of John Paul II. He's cozying up to the LGBTers, blasts capitalism, sticks foot in mouth, and has the ugly ecumenical stuff JP2 liked. Worst of all worlds imho.

I don't think this is an accurate or charitable assessment of Pope Francis.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Like I said, if reunion were to take place, and it won't, there is only one outcome that could be accepted---total, utter, unequivocal, absolute conversion of the West to Holy Orthodoxy dropping the papal innovations, dropping purgatory and indulgences, dropping the horrendous liturgy, dumping the filioque, and hopefully returning the Eucharist from the cardboard-tasting mass-produced discs to the Bread of Christ

yep, and that's just the start.

The only thing I think Orthodoxy can truly learn from Catholicism is how to run charities. Honestly Catholic Charities are first-rate, incredible, awesome in how they minister to the poor and disenfranchised. We could also benefit from their pro-life zeal.

yep, and have more Orthodox schools, hospitals, and universities.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Really? Well, let's take a look here. He made some pandering comments to the LGBT community and got put on the cover of several gay magazines. Never did he come out and seek to explain his comments, put context to them, or tell us that he is opposed to their lifestyles. So, making a seemingly pro-LGBT comment and then allowing your image as a patriarch to be put all over homosexual magazines and all over the internet unchallenged as pro-gay, well, makes you seem a touch pro-gay, no? In Argentina he also supported same-sex civil unions. Simple math, Columba.

Then I said he is anti-capitalist. Have you read what he has said about capitalism? You might want to take the time to read it. He has said anti-capitalist sentiments right and left.

Thirdly, he has pressed the ecumenical button hard. Look at recent events.

So, what I said was neither uncharitable or inaccurate.

I don't think this is an accurate or charitable assessment of Pope Francis.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Agreed.

yep, and that's just the start.



yep, and have more Orthodox schools, hospitals, and universities.

 

[Nik0s]

Would the Catholics need to change to leavened bread if reunion occurred? They were using it since before the schism.