Christians being Persecuted in North America?

sniperelite7

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Are they and what examples can be provided of it? I've encountered several examples. The supreme court case regarding Catholic hospitals and providing abortions, but that seems to hinge on them accepting public funds, in which case I can see why issues have been raised.

Our Canadian brothers and sisters can help here, but I had also heard of a preacher in Canada(?) who was arrested for disagreeing with homosexuality. Google is of no help, could be a hoax.

Finally, the Christian couple in Oregon who was forced to shut down their shop for refusing to serve homosexuals.

My issue is, culture wars are messy affairs, on the whole, which group is suffering more at the others hands, gays or Christians? Persecution in the present times here in US, seems to be a topic that pops up a lot in my church, but to be honest, im not feeling it. It seems to me that Christians in this society operate from an advantage. So...are we really being persecuted, or are we doing the persecuting? Are other communities(Such as the gay rights community) hitting back with equal malice...or are things just getting caught up in a sloppy culture war?

Thoughts?
 

Armoured

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Well to me persecution is something along the lines of concentration camps and lions. Im articulating the view of the church I attend for arguments sake.
Interesting. Further, I think if you do a little more research into the various stories, they're quite different in reality to the way they've been presented to you. In my experience, every single one of these sorts of stories becomes very much a non issue when you look into them. Mostly, they seem to be people trying to get free publicity from playing the "poor persecuted Christian" card, when in reality, all they are is minor level law breakers.

I could be proven wrong any time, but thats what I've seen so far. People thinking the law doesn't apply to them and trying to hide their being obstreperous blowhards behind a veil of alleged persecution.
 
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Marius27

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Christians are not persecuted in any Western country. Refusing to abide by secular laws and getting sued for doesn't count as persecution.

I always find it ironic how horribly Conservative "Christians" treat gays, yet have the audacity to pull the persecution card if people lose respect for them or sue.
 
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XtianAgain

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Christians are not persecuted in any Western country. Refusing to abide by secular laws and getting sued for doesn't count as persecution.

I always find it ironic how horribly Conservative "Christians" treat gays, yet have the audacity to pull the persecution card if people lose respect for them or sue.

Well said. How do you want to deny a whole group of tax paying adults the right to marry who they love and claim persecution when you're held legally accountable for it? Conservatives are slowly but surely losing the war against LGBTs and are now crying foul.
 
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hedrick

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I'm not familiar enough with Canada to be sure. They seem to have PC police up there with insufficient oversight. But in the US most cases are bogus. Maybe the same is true in Canada if you know what's going on.

I don't think it's religious persecution to say that health plans have to allow abortion. It doesn't cost any more to include coverage for it (in fact I think it may cost less, as abortions probably cost less than full-term pregnancies), so you're not paying for it, and your employees don't have to use it.

The cases of wedding photographers, etc, are difficult. The problem is that some businesses are legally considered "public accommodations." Going back to the civil rights era, they aren't allowed to discriminate. Do you want hotels to be able to turn down blacks, and say "they can always go to another hotel." Probably not. So we have two issues:

* should photographers and wedding venues be public accommodations. I don't know. But this was a decision made in good faith before gay marriage was an issue.
* should gay marriage be covered? Probably. No discrimination probably means no discrimination.

Would we want Google to refuse to accept email announcing gay marriages? I don't think so. (They aren't a public accommodation, but I believe they are a common carrier, which has some of the same issues.) My sense is that people in certain businesses are going to have to accept that they are public accommodations.

Calling this religious persecution trivializes an important problem, which is all too common around the world today.
 
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dpinto96

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Well, I'll be personally honest with you in saying that I believe homosexuality is a personal choice, and not something you're born with. That's just my spin on things. However, I accept them as human beings and sure I'll let them live their lives as long as no one's trying that with me. I also agree that discrimination is wrong. In that manner everyone has their freedom of speech and belief, but there are always limitations. Mixing the government and religion is almost like an invisible war that has been countering each others actions, which is why we try not to juxtaposition. Yeah we have our beliefs and all, but I think we should just let God do what he has to. In terms of defending our religion; I'd say...right on. If we look at both sides, we're really persecuting each other. That side wants to change something that a religion has never agreed on in its past, and our side wants them to stop what they're doing. The government is just trying to balance the weights in this situation. Personally, I just believe in Adam & Eve.
 
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camethodactor

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As a seminarian, a pastor to be, an engaged straight ally of the LGBT community including the right of marriage, I respect the right of my brothers and sisters in Christ who hold theologically conservative views as long as they do not impose it on others and they respect the right of more liberal Christians like myself to practice my faith according to my God given conscience. There bunches of Christians in other parts of the world that are legitimately persecuted on account of their faith but it is not in any Western country I know and certainly not in America. We have a separation of church and state in this country and it is there to ensure that the church that doesn't reign over the government and the government doesn't reign over the church. This is a principle we as Christians have been advocating for a long time especially in the free church tradition. When government co-ops faith or faith co-ops government both are diminished and the church loses its soul. While I rejoice at each advance that made in human rights for LGBT and straight people alike, I understand that there are those among my sisters and brothers in Christ and in their churches that do not endorse such rights and that is their prerogative. No church, synagogue or mosque will ever be forced to perform marriages for those whom they think are unfit for their rites of marriage. Individual houses of worship and their denominations are able to perform marriages according to their right and tradition without reprisal. We as Christians in the affirming churches should be able to perform both LGBT and straight marriages and those who are more traditional can limit them to just straight couples. As per the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and laws that follow in that vein- people who operate businesses especially public accommodations (hotels, restaurants, bakeries, ect) cannot discriminate against someone on the basis of race, ethnicity, sexual orientation or any other class of person because they are serving the public. The Religious Right has no right to claim persecution especially when they are persecuting their more liberal and moderate sisters and brothers in Christ like myself, LGBT people, women, and God's children in other faith traditions. They are complaining because they are loosing their privilege and power that they once wielded and they feel they should be able to subject others to their religious bigotry and doctrine. When it comes to civil liberties its about maintaining and upholding liberty for all where all are free and America is not the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) or the Assemblies of God (AofG)
 
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jazzflower92

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As a seminarian, a pastor to be, an engaged straight ally of the LGBT community including the right of marriage, I respect the right of my brothers and sisters in Christ who hold theologically conservative views as long as they do not impose it on others and they respect the right of more liberal Christians like myself to practice my faith according to my God given conscience. There bunches of Christians in other parts of the world that are legitimately persecuted on account of their faith but it is not in any Western country I know and certainly not in America. We have a separation of church and state in this country and it is there to ensure that the church that doesn't reign over the government and the government doesn't reign over the church. This is a principle we as Christians have been advocating for a long time especially in the free church tradition. When government co-ops faith or faith co-ops government both are diminished and the church loses its soul. While I rejoice at each advance that made in human rights for LGBT and straight people alike, I understand that there are those among my sisters and brothers in Christ and in their churches that do not endorse such rights and that is their prerogative. No church, synagogue or mosque will ever be forced to perform marriages for those whom they think are unfit for their rites of marriage. Individual houses of worship and their denominations are able to perform marriages according to their right and tradition without reprisal. We as Christians in the affirming churches should be able to perform both LGBT and straight marriages and those who are more traditional can limit them to just straight couples. As per the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and laws that follow in that vein- people who operate businesses especially public accommodations (hotels, restaurants, bakeries, ect) cannot discriminate against someone on the basis of race, ethnicity, sexual orientation or any other class of person because they are serving the public. The Religious Right has no right to claim persecution especially when they are persecuting their more liberal and moderate sisters and brothers in Christ like myself, LGBT people, women, and God's children in other faith traditions. They are complaining because they are loosing their privilege and power that they once wielded and they feel they should be able to subject others to their religious bigotry and doctrine. When it comes to civil liberties its about maintaining and upholding liberty for all where all are free and America is not the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) or the Assemblies of God (AofG)

Or the fact many in the gay rights movements do questionable moves that is never called on. Like how for some businesses they have gotten death threats when they refused to service gay weddings. Or things like the transgender bathroom bill that has very big implications for the future. Sometimes I think some liberal sects have a self righteous attitude about being progressive in the world's eyes and always never looking at the reasons some people have a problem with some things from the homosexual movement.

Contrary to popular belief a lot of those Christian owners said they have served gay customers but refused when asked to do gay weddings. This is where the gray area comes in.
 
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GenetoJean

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Or the fact many in the gay rights movements do questionable moves that is never called on. Like how for some businesses they have gotten death threats when they refused to service gay weddings. Or things like the transgender bathroom bill that has very big implications for the future. Sometimes I think some liberal sects have a self righteous attitude about being progressive in the world's eyes and always never looking at the reasons some people have a problem with some things from the homosexual movement.

I dont support ANY group who uses intimidation or death threats and hate it terribly that some members of the LGBT community use them. As far as transgender right laws, I do support them. However I am against pre-op transgender people (such as myself) from using open changing rooms or showers. I personally do look at the reasons but just because I disagree some think I dont look.
 
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jazzflower92

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I dont support ANY group who uses intimidation or death threats and hate it terribly that some members of the LGBT community use them. As far as transgender right laws, I do support them. However I am against pre-op transgender people (such as myself) from using open changing rooms or showers. I personally do look at the reasons but just because I disagree some think I dont look.

Looking at these issues will be more complex and in need of more well thought out ideas. One reason why I am against the bathroom bill is that I believe the bullying won't stop if they were allowed to use any bathroom/changing room of their choice. I have a feeling some really jerky guys would gang up on a transgender boy student or some jerky girls would talk hurtfully about a transgender girl. The bottom line is kids are cruel and will find new ways to be utterly evil to their fellow students.
 
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GenetoJean

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Looking at these issues will be more complex and in need of more well thought out ideas. One reason why I am against the bathroom bill is that I believe the bullying won't stop if they were allowed to use any bathroom/changing room of their choice. I have a feeling some really jerky guys would gang up on a transgender boy student or some jerky girls would talk hurtfully about a transgender girl. The bottom line is kids are cruel and will find new ways to be utterly evil to their fellow students.

I agree with most of this. I do worry that the transgender community go all out without thinking things through.
 
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camethodactor

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Sister, I respect you as my sister in Christ and I'm glad you are stating your concerns in a loving, Christ affirming way. I'm a big believer in treating other people the way you would like to be treated. So harming people physically, mentally, psychologically, verbally or spiritually is wrong by anyone who does it. Sometimes as affirming Christians we do get arrogant and condescending sometimes. Yes we believe in marriage equality and LGBT rights strongly and yes we do believe that homophobia like any other prejudice is contrary to the spirit of Jesus who welcomed all into his embrace. However, we need to acknowledge that not all our sisters or brothers who don't approve of same sex marriages are vile homophobes. Some of them do actually love God's gay and lesbian children but they cannot for one reason or another accept gay and lesbian marriages being performed by their denomination. I encourage people on both sides to come together to understand one another and learn from each other. It doesn't mean we have to agree but it does mean we are willing to be vulnerable and open ourselves to new ways of being and living as Christians. The standard in any relationship whether LGBT or straight is not "Who do you love?" but rather the standard is "Do you love?" Do you seek to love your beloved as God through Christ loves us all?, "Are you willing to support your beloved in good times and in bad, for better or worse, in sickness and health, for richer or poorer till death shall both you part?. All of us whether LGBT or straight have civil marriages which applies to all people. No one should be excluded from a civil marriage. A religious marriage is open only to those whom the church, mosque, synagogue or temple deems worthy of its sacrament and it can make rules according to their conscience and tradition. Religious organizations do not perform marriages. We bless marriages according to the dictates of our tradition and conscience. In France they have a beautiful system where any couple LGBT or straight can obtain a marriage license and be married by the city. From that point on they can seek religious blessing at their house of worship. Marriage equality, LGBT rights and the individual right of conscience for houses of worship can co-exist in mutuality.
Or the fact many in the gay rights movements do questionable moves that is never called on. Like how for some businesses they have gotten death threats when they refused to service gay weddings. Or things like the transgender bathroom bill that has very big implications for the future. Sometimes I think some liberal sects have a self righteous attitude about being progressive in the world's eyes and always never looking at the reasons some people have a problem with some things from the homosexual movement.

Contrary to popular belief a lot of those Christian owners said they have served gay customers but refused when asked to do gay weddings. This is where the gray area comes in.
 
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GenetoJean

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Sister, I respect you as my sister in Christ and I'm glad you are stating your concerns in a loving, Christ affirming way. I'm a big believer in treating other people the way you would like to be treated. So harming people physically, mentally, psychologically, verbally or spiritually is wrong by anyone who does it. Sometimes as affirming Christians we do get arrogant and condescending sometimes. Yes we believe in marriage equality and LGBT rights strongly and yes we do believe that homophobia like any other prejudice is contrary to the spirit of Jesus who welcomed all into his embrace. However, we need to acknowledge that not all our sisters or brothers who don't approve of same sex marriages are vile homophobes. Some of them do actually love God's gay and lesbian children but they cannot for one reason or another accept gay and lesbian marriages being performed by their denomination. I encourage people on both sides to come together to understand one another and learn from each other. It doesn't mean we have to agree but it does mean we are willing to be vulnerable and open ourselves to new ways of being and living as Christians. The standard in any relationship whether LGBT or straight is not "Who do you love?" but rather the standard is "Do you love?" Do you seek to love your beloved as God through Christ loves us all?, "Are you willing to support your beloved in good times and in bad, for better or worse, in sickness and health, for richer or poorer till death shall both you part?. All of us whether LGBT or straight have civil marriages which applies to all people. No one should be excluded from a civil marriage. A religious marriage is open only to those whom the church, mosque, synagogue or temple deems worthy of its sacrament and it can make rules according to their conscience and tradition. Religious organizations do not perform marriages. We bless marriages according to the dictates of our tradition and conscience. In France they have a beautiful system where any couple LGBT or straight can obtain a marriage license and be married by the city. From that point on they can seek religious blessing at their house of worship. Marriage equality, LGBT rights and the individual right of conscience for houses of worship can co-exist in mutuality.

I agree with this a lot. I can tell when someone truly is trying to help me out of love and a down in the heart belief that I am doing wrong. We may disagree but I appreciate their love.
 
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jazzflower92

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If I could make the rules it would be Civil Unions for straight and gay couples. To make it fair for everyone. Also Civil Unions will still have benefits and everything. I would make civil unions the government thing while marriage would be the religious thing. I might sound a little shrill but at heart I don't think its persecution but strong cases of this country going through culture wars. Like any culture war there will be sides that will have strong opinions one what they support. They see one side having a bad influence on the public at large.
 
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GenetoJean

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If I could make the rules it would be Civil Unions for straight and gay couples. To make it fair for everyone. Also Civil Unions will still have benefits and everything. I would make civil unions the government thing while marriage would be the religious thing. I might sound a little shrill but at heart I don't think its persecution but strong cases of this country going through culture wars. Like any culture war there will be sides that will have strong opinions one what they support. They see one side having a bad influence on the public at large.

I have said this, this part about civil unions, from the start of the whole debate.
 
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jazzflower92

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I have said this, this part about civil unions, from the start of the whole debate.

The only real big issue is of gay marriage and how appropriate of an idea to introduce gay history to even kindergarteners. Not to mention I think some parts of gay history might be white washed by some with an agenda. Why do I bring this up is here in California Jerry Brown as introduced tons of these types of legislations. I think maybe eight grade and high school would be a better place to begin.

Despite all of this I don't want anymore conservatives supporting people like Putin because that would be really face palming. Even if one is against gay marriage the laws he has in place goes too far and a lot of these laws have led to church officials encouraging followers to beat gay people up. Supporting the family is good but if it means aligning with an ex-KGB member then count me out. That's another thing is the fact these laws stifle free speech to the point anyone caught wearing a gay pride symbol is fined or put in jail. If you read about Scott Lively then I can be sorry to tell you that this is more of his handy work and is going to be in Russia trying to be an even bigger influence than before.
 
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Armoured

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What I like to call “armchair” persecution.
I theorise that since the Bible speaks about how the true believers will find themselves being persecuted, and that such persecution is a sign you’re on the right path, it pulls at the conscience of many overweight, under exercised middle class westerners that their lives are somewhat lacking in persecution, and so to cover this seeming gap in their spiritual lives, they’ll desperately take anything remotely misconstruable as persecution and wrap it around themselves like a big reasuring blanket.
…”unfounded internet rumour that one of the Columbine murderers asked someone if they were a Christian before he killed her? HE WAS PERSECUTING CHRISTIANS! Thank goodness, Christians are being persecuted, I am a Christian, therefore I am being persecuted, QED. I’m so glad I can sleep soundly in my warm queen size bed after eating twice my daily recomended caloric requirement and not feel guilty about the world’s poor or starving. What with me being PERSECUTED and all, I must be on the right track. I can’t wait for the “war on Christmas” to start up to make me feel even more persecuted and thereby justify my blatant crass consumerism!”
The Myth of the Man Arrested for Bible Study » Dispatches from the Culture Wars
 
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