I am an intrinsically disordered human being...

Michie

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
165,522
55,220
Woods
✟4,586,217.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Any Catholic who has attended a parish fundraiser is familiar with the concept of a so-called “Chinese Auction”: One buys a round of tickets, surveys a table laden with baskets of cheer, baby items, sports memorabilia, and other tchotchkes, and then drops a ticket or two into paper bags near selected items.

I am an intrinsically disordered human being...
 

Needing_Grace

Chief of Sinners
May 8, 2011
3,350
146
Los Angeles, CA
✟11,799.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Oooh, goody. Yet another article comparing the life-destroying issue of same-sex attraction to someone's peccadilloes (in this case, gluttony).

The most useful thing written on the link was the following comment:

"A person with a predisposition to overeat who by whatever strategies and efforts does *not* overeat is not a glutton. But according to the Church, a man with a homosexual orientation who forever chaste in both thought and deed is "damaged goods." He may not become a priest, because he can never be a "father type." He also, according to the Church, may be barred from being a coach, a teacher, or from joining the military based on orientation *alone*. "

And this is exactly why I feel I have no place in the Church.
 
Upvote 0

Cosmic Charlie

The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated
Oct 14, 2003
15,418
2,337
✟64,958.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
1) I've never heard of a "Chinese auction", and to be perfectly honest term sounds a little judicial. Sort of like using the word "gyp" or "Jew" when refer to being fleeced by someone.

2) The internet, dual edged sword that it may be, is not a vast wasteland.

3) The use of as obscure a Yiddish word as "tchotchke" only exacerbates the whole uncomfortable feeling of xenophobia.

4) This whole article is twisting the use and meaning of "intrinsically disordered" in the CCC in order to trivialize the fate of gay people: "If we're all intrinsically disordered you're not special and don't need protection.

While I understand the point she could have left homosexuals out of it.

Unless, of course, that was the real point of this article.

Which it was, lets be honest here
 
Upvote 0

Michie

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
165,522
55,220
Woods
✟4,586,217.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
LOL! You two & your homosexual victim cards on everything.

Read the article & quit the dramatics. You are just making the author's point. Sheesh.
Such a thing recently happened to me, on Facebook. Someone had posted an article about a Catholic pastor at a San Francisco parish who removed a portrait of His Holiness Benedict XVI because of complaints by parishioners that “Pope Benedict had made hurtful and hateful statements regarding the LGBT community.”


There followed a mostly thoughtful online debate, including helpful links to quotes by Benedict which seemed to belie the charge, and some discussion as to whether the pastor’s suggestion to his flock that “forgiving people’s shortcomings, including the pope’s, makes it easier for me to forgive my own shortcomings” was the deepest lesson to take from the incident.


After recognizing that it is a common thing to hate what one does not understand, but also—especially in our secularizing world—an increasingly common practice to willfully resist understanding what one has decided to hate, a consensus was formed: A church that so regularly preaches on the dignity of the human person “needs to listen to the gay community.” There seemed to be a mirroring agreement—albeit a vague one—that yes, the gay community needs to listen to what the Church is saying, too.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Imperiuz
Upvote 0

Needing_Grace

Chief of Sinners
May 8, 2011
3,350
146
Los Angeles, CA
✟11,799.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Michie said:
LOL! You two & your homosexual victim cards on everything.

Read the article & quit the dramatics. You are just making the author's point. Sheesh.

I did read the article.

She's comparing a peccadillo to something that poisons every aspect of my existence.

Gluttony is nowhere defined in the catechism as any sort of disorder. It's one of the Seven Capital Sins. Homosexuality is defined, specifically as objectively AND intrinsically disordered. They're in completely separate universes with regards to gravity and effect.

As previously stated, a person who likes to eat too much is no big deal. SSA, on the other hand..."well, just sit in the pew, go to confession and just shut your mouth! Stop being so dramatic. It's no biggie that we have no use or need for you."

She's comparing her little necklace-sized cross with the ancient California Redwood sized cross of SSA.

So she has to practice a little discipline with regards to food.

Well cry me a river.

Sent from my iPhone using CF
 
Upvote 0

Michie

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
165,522
55,220
Woods
✟4,586,217.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
*sigh* I think you missed the point but hang on to your bitterness if it makes you feel better.
There followed a mostly thoughtful online debate, including helpful links to quotes by Benedict which seemed to belie the charge, and some discussion as to whether the pastor’s suggestion to his flock that “forgiving people’s shortcomings, including the pope’s, makes it easier for me to forgive my own shortcomings” was the deepest lesson to take from the incident.


After recognizing that it is a common thing to hate what one does not understand, but also—especially in our secularizing world—an increasingly common practice to willfully resist understanding what one has decided to hate, a consensus was formed: A church that so regularly preaches on the dignity of the human person “needs to listen to the gay community.” There seemed to be a mirroring agreement—albeit a vague one—that yes, the gay community needs to listen to what the Church is saying, too.
 
Upvote 0

Cosmic Charlie

The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated
Oct 14, 2003
15,418
2,337
✟64,958.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
LOL! You two & your homosexual victim cards on everything.

.

Homosexuals ARE victims Mich.

School systems have exceptions to anti-bullying policies that allow people to bully them for "religious reasons"

They are routinely denied service of all sorts just because they're gay.

They get curbed, beaten and killed because people are scared/panicked/grossed out by them.

Imprisoned and put to death in Muslim and Christian nations all over the world

And of course

They are ostracized by trivialized by Christian Churches everywhere who on one hand claim that they are to be treated fairly and on the other hand work to ensure that they don't have to treat them fairly because it would interfere with their "religious liberty".

And of course,

over-eaters have to suffer all but none of this but are somehow just the same as homosexuals.

Just WHO is claiming false victim-hood here Mich ?
 
Upvote 0

Cosmic Charlie

The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated
Oct 14, 2003
15,418
2,337
✟64,958.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I say we get to the topic of the OP. I'm tired of every thread being used for coming in with both snark barrels blasting while ignoring the point of the OP to turn the article into something it isn't.

.....snark barrels .... ?

Look, if you don't like my interpretation of this article (and I think it's a reasonable one) fine I'm gone.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Michie

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
165,522
55,220
Woods
✟4,586,217.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
.....snark barrels .... ?

Look, if you don't like my interpretation of this article (and I think it's a reasonable one) fine I'm gone.
I'm not asking you to leave. I'm asking you to address the point of the article. Not turn it into imaginary hate speech.
 
Upvote 0

Michie

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
165,522
55,220
Woods
✟4,586,217.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
So to get back to the point of the op. The author's personal reflection.


Such a thing recently happened to me, on Facebook. Someone had posted an article about a Catholic pastor at a San Francisco parish who removed a portrait of His Holiness Benedict XVI because of complaints by parishioners that “Pope Benedict had made hurtful and hateful statements regarding the LGBT community.”


There followed a mostly thoughtful online debate, including helpful links to quotes by Benedict which seemed to belie the charge, and some discussion as to whether the pastor’s suggestion to his flock that “forgiving people’s shortcomings, including the pope’s, makes it easier for me to forgive my own shortcomings” was the deepest lesson to take from the incident.




After recognizing that it is a common thing to hate what one does not understand, but also—especially in our secularizing world—an increasingly common practice to willfully resist understanding what one has decided to hate, a consensus was formed: A church that so regularly preaches on the dignity of the human person “needs to listen to the gay community.” There seemed to be a mirroring agreement—albeit a vague one—that yes, the gay community needs to listen to what the Church is saying, too.

All well and good, but the thread became for me less of a tchotchke bag and more of a personal prize when a cleric said, “I think that any of us would struggle with being told that some aspect of our humanity—as creatures of God—was intrinsically disordered,” and a layman shot back, “My desire to overeat, my desire to drink to excess, my desire [for] fornication, my desire to swindle people out of money for my own gain are also intrinsically disordered.”


And there it was—the intrinsic disorder that is part and parcel of desire when it so profoundly permeates our lives as to separate us from God; desire that stands between us and God until it becomes the idol in God’s place. Suddenly, in the course of a minor Internet thread, I was face to face with my own intrinsic disorder.


As someone who struggles with food—too often losing the battle and gaining the weight—I found that something rang true in that layman’s response. Whether I act on my food urges or not, they are always with me, and the gluttony in which they find release is certainly as detrimental to my soul as any “sin against chastity.”


I am “intrinsically disordered” when it comes to food, and it doesn’t really matter how I became so. Whether it is due to a genetic pre-disposition, or a habit of psychological buffering—or some combination of nature and nurture—the fact remains that I am disordered, and I must deal with it. Every day. Sometimes hour by hour, sometimes minute by tempted minute.


Up to now I have done a very poor job of dealing with it, largely because until that moment of clarity, I had not recognized the disorder. Like most same-sex attracted persons, I had thought of my battles and defeats in terms of weakness, shame; discipline, programming, and willpower; there was no connection to the transcendent, so how could I ever transcend myself?


We are told that the phrase “intrinsically disordered” is hurtful or hateful, and yet I find the words ironically healing; they give me precisely the hook into that transcendent understanding (and into notions of original sin and even idolatry) that I have been missing. Far from taking any offense at the idea that I am “intrinsically disordered,” I am actually consoled.


In identifying my disorder as “intrinsic”—that it resides within me as naturally as the marrow in my bones—I understand that there is no point in attempting to further fool myself or run away from myself; I am released from self-hate, shame, or defensiveness. At the same time, I am now and forever obliged to acknowledge—with every temptation—that I am disordered, and within that acknowledgement to then choose whether I will serve the disorder, at the cost of Heaven, or serve God.


In choosing God, I will have to both rely on God and actively work toward obedience to what is natural in his law, rather than what is natural to me. This is no small thing. It is a daily tension between my love of God and my love of an idol intrinsic to me—original to me.

My intrinsic disorder is my own mysterious original sin; it works ceaselessly—like an ever-ready serpent—to pull me away from God. It demands that I throw myself daily into the outstretched arms of grace, or be lost.


Eden, itself. Not a bad take-home from a tchotchke thread.
 
Upvote 0

Needing_Grace

Chief of Sinners
May 8, 2011
3,350
146
Los Angeles, CA
✟11,799.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
So to get back to the point of the op. The author's personal reflection.

I think I get her point. Recognize that we're poor, miserable sinners, each in his own way and rely on Divine Grace.

The problem I have is the comparison between a peccadillo and a serious life altering issue that ultimately results in a life lived in isolation with only the promise of "pie in the sky" to sustain hope (virtue that, I think, is the source of joy) that something better and more fulfilling is coming.

Someone who likes to overeat still has all kinds of choices in life s/he can take...provided they're not homosexual. Then it's the unconsecrated single state for life, no choice.

Imagine that...seriously. Unconsecrated. Single. For life. No choice.

Oh, and I never mention this but it's something I frequently think about...Word and Sacrament. I love both and would love to be able to share both, but I'm barred from that vocation because I have no choice but to be unconsecrated and single for life because I lack "affective maturity." I don't blame the Church for this. I don't blame anyone. It's something that I see as me missing what I was actually supposed to do and that's really hard to take.

So call me a drama queen if you like, but do try to see it from my point of view...just this once. ;)
 
Upvote 0

Michie

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
165,522
55,220
Woods
✟4,586,217.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I think I get her point. Recognize that we're poor, miserable sinners, each in his own way and rely on Divine Grace.

The problem I have is the comparison between a peccadillo and a serious life altering issue that ultimately results in a life lived in isolation with only the promise of "pie in the sky" to sustain hope (virtue that, I think, is the source of joy) that something better and more fulfilling is coming.

Someone who likes to overeat still has all kinds of choices in life s/he can take...provided they're not homosexual. Then it's the unconsecrated single state for life, no choice.

Imagine that...seriously. Unconsecrated. Single. For life. No choice.

Oh, and I never mention this...Word and Sacrament. I love both and would love to be able to share both, but I'm barred from that vocation because I have no choice but to be unconsecrated and single for life because I lack "affective maturity." I don't blame the Church for this. I don't blame anyone. It's something that I see as me missing what I was actually supposed to do and that's really hard to take.

So call me a drama queen if you life, but do try to see it from my point of view...just this once. ;)
I absolutely see your point of view when you put it out there rationally. I sympathize, I really do. But it is really hard to compare crosses that we carry because we are not the same people with the same strengths, weaknesses, or circumstances.

Calling your cross bigger or more painful than another... there is no way to measure than from each individual's perspective.

There are many unhappily married & lonely people out there with all sorts of issues. There are many celibate people out there that are quite happy. I depends on each individual & their situation.

The point is we are all intrinsically disordered in some way or the other. It does not just apply to homosexuals. I applies to all of us. We should not only be understanding & supportive of each other & ourselves but we should not see the Church or one another as an enemy. God & the Church under Him molds us & advises in the way we should go. But we have to listen & try to understand why that is without disregarding ourselves, each other or the Church all together. For our growth & betterment. We all struggle.

We can't compare our sins or struggles. Because we all sin & struggle. We were all born with original sin & are disordered in one way or the other.

How do you know she's not sticking her finger own her throat every night?

How do you know that couple does not struggle with addiction or domestic abuse?

The list goes on & on.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Needing_Grace

Chief of Sinners
May 8, 2011
3,350
146
Los Angeles, CA
✟11,799.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I absolutely see your point of view when you put it out there rationally. I sympathize, I really do. But it is really hard to compare crosses that we carry because we are not the same people with the same strengths, weaknesses, or circumstances.

Calling your cross bigger or more painful than another... there is no way to measure than from each individual's perspective.

There are many unhappily married & lonely people out there with all sorts of issues. There are many celibate people out there that are quite happy. I depends on each individual & their situation.

The point is we are all intrinsically disordered in some way or the other. It does not just apply to homosexuals. I applies to all of us. We should not only be understanding & supportive of each other & ourselves but we should not see the Church or one another as an enemy. God & the Church under Him molds us & advises in the way we should go. But we have to listen & try to understand why that is without disregarding ourselves, each other or the Church all together. For our growth & betterment. We all struggle.

We can't compare our sins or struggles. Because we all sin & struggle. We were all born with original sin & are disordered in one way or the other.

How do you know she's not sticking her finger own her throat every night?

How do you know that couple does not struggle with addiction or domestic abuse?

The list goes on & on.

Okay. I can accept that we're all poor, miserable sinners each in his own way.

However, as I did point out, gluttony is not classified by the Church as an intrinsic or objective disorder. It appears only once in the Catechism in the list of the seven deadly sins. I'd say that it's an inordinate (it's not what is desired, it's how much) desire for food.

Now, homosexuality is specifically described by the Church in the official Catechism as intrinsically and objectively disordered (because of the issue of who is desiring whom in a sexual way). That's the teaching of the Church we all have to accept.

That both are a manifestation of concupiscence, meaning we're all poor, miserable sinners each in his own way...absolutely accepted. That we all must rely on Divine Grace as provided for completely and utterly by Christ for everything in our salvation...granted as fact. Word and Sacrament.

Oh, and it was Ms. Scalia who made the comparison. I was actually calling out the flaw in the comparison. The comparison is made way too much as if to minimize what having same-sex attractions actually means (which I explained previously and you acknowledged, thank you :thumbsup:) to the same-sex attracted, not cool. I have issues with that. On the other hand, if the conclusion is the message of the cross (the preceding paragraph), cool.
 
Upvote 0

Michie

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
165,522
55,220
Woods
✟4,586,217.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Okay. I can accept that we're all poor, miserable sinners each in his own way.

However, as I did point out, gluttony is not classified by the Church as an intrinsic or objective disorder. It appears only once in the Catechism in the list of the seven deadly sins. I'd say that it's an inordinate (it's not what is desired, it's how much) desire for food.

Now, homosexuality is specifically described by the Church in the official Catechism as intrinsically and objectively disordered (because of the issue of who is desiring whom in a sexual way). That's the teaching of the Church we all have to accept.

That both are a manifestation of concupiscence, meaning we're all poor, miserable sinners each in his own way...absolutely accepted. That we all must rely on Divine Grace as provided for completely and utterly by Christ for everything in our salvation...granted as fact. Word and Sacrament.

Oh, and it was Ms. Scalia who made the comparison. I was actually calling out the flaw in the comparison. The comparison is made way too much as if to minimize what having same-sex attractions actually means (which I explained previously and you acknowledged, thank you :thumbsup:) to the same-sex attracted, not cool. I have issues with that. On the other hand, if the conclusion is the message of the cross (the preceding paragraph), cool.
It was a personal reflection that she shared in light of certain events. I get where you re coming from but I don't think it was a comparison but more of a tie in given recent events. Maybe not perfect but you know, I don't expect perfection. The intent was good. It was not a brazenly bigoted reflection as was first implied right down to the word 'tchotchke' being 'xenophobic'.

It's about the intent not how many politically incorrect boo boos you can catch a person in & missing the point completely.

Reminds me of our sue happy society that is just spoiling or a fight.
 
Upvote 0

Michie

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
165,522
55,220
Woods
✟4,586,217.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I wonder about the comparison a lot...is it fair to compare a chaste homosexual to a person who struggles with gluttony but does not generally overeat... and a person engaging in homosexual sex to a person who regularly overeats?
She was saying we are all instrinsically disordered. Not the size of our crosses.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

TheOtherHockeyMom

Contributor
Jul 9, 2008
5,935
274
✟14,889.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
She was saying we are all instrinsically disordered. Not the size of our crosses.

I get that, but I was thinking more along these lines...if you see two people of the same sex sharing public displays of affection, and an overweight person pushing a shopping cart loaded with junk food to the cashier, do you have the same reaction? Do we view not being able to successfully carry the cross and bear the temptation in both cases equally? Or is falling into sin worse in some cases than others?
 
Upvote 0