The Start of the Tribulation

eclipsenow

God cares about his creation as well as us.
Dec 17, 2010
8,230
1,701
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟139,901.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
That could be right, insofar as the Antichrist may not appear on the world stage until after the horrible future war of Rev. 6:4-8 and Dan. 11:15-17
Why do you think these describe the same battle? That's just silly when Revelation is symbolic, not prescriptive, and generic, not particular.
 
Upvote 0
B

Bible2

Guest
eclipsenow said in post 301:

Revelation is symbolic . . .

Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it's unsealed (Rev. 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it's written: chronologically & almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Rev. 1:20, 17:9-12), and Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Rev. 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Dan. 7:4-7,17). Just as Jesus' second coming in Rev. 19:7-20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Rev. chs. 6-18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Rev. 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' second coming (Rev. 19:7-20:6, Zech. 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29, Ps. 66:3-4, 72:8-11). After that, the events of Rev. 20:7-22:5 will occur literally.

eclipsenow said in post 301:

Revelation is symbolic, not prescriptive, and generic, not particular.

Regarding "generic, not particular", Rev. chs. 6-22 are a highly-detailed, almost entirely literal future timetable, for they contain such a huge number of details, which are so varied, so specific, so chronological, & so long, that to reduce all of them to merely a general description of life at anytime renders them utterly useless. For what person who has ever lived needs a general description of life? It's like throwing Rev. chs. 6-22 into the trash, just to be done with them.
 
Upvote 0
B

Bible2

Guest
vinsight4u said in post 303:

Hi Bible2

Hi.

vinsight4u said in post 303:

I agree also that the US is making a huge mistake sending military arms to Iraq. Maybe you could start a new thread on this, and we could get a good discussion going on it. Focus right in on how Iraq is coming back strong soon!

There's no need to start a new thread, because this thread is about the start of the tribulation, and the tribulation could start with an all-out Iraqi (& Syrian) invasion, defeat, and occupation of Israel, as was shown in post 299. Regarding that post, someone might say that the Baathists who will be ruling Iraq & Syria would be deterred from attacking Israel because of Israel's nuclear weapons. But even though Iraq & Syria know of Israel's nuclear weapons and its tendency to retaliate in huge measure against attacks, Iraq and Syria could still decide to make an all-out attack against Israel, for a couple of reasons. First, by that time Iran could have successfully built (or secretly purchased from North Korea) and tested its first nuclear weapon, and have claimed to have built a few more to (in its words) "serve solely for defensive purposes against Israel's nuclear threat". Iraq and Syria could then think that Israel won't use its nuclear weapons against them, even if they do attack Israel with all their conventional forces, because Israel would then have to fear Iran retaliating against Israel with nuclear weapons.

Second, the destruction of the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque could so enrage the rank and file of the (Muslim) Iraqi and Syrian Armies that they could demand an immediate invasion of Israel, and threaten an all-out revolt against their generals if their generals refuse to lead them in the attack. Fearing for their own lives at the hands of their own soldiers, the generals could initiate the attack against Israel, figuring that even if Israel goes ahead and nukes Baghdad and Damascus in retaliation for the total defeat of Israel, by that time the Iraqi and Syrian armies will all be in Israel, out of harm's way from Israel's nukes, for Israel isn't going to nuke its own land.

But what good would it do the Baathists to gain "Palestine" and Egypt while losing Baghdad and Damascus to Israeli nukes? The Baathists could figure that the loss of Baghdad and Damascus (which they could evacuate ahead of time) is worth it in order to completely defeat Israel and Egypt, thereby removing much of the foundation of U.S. hegemony over the Arab world. And by the time the U.S. makes its counter-attack to "restore" (i.e. to take back) Israel and Egypt, the Baathists could have become so well dug-in, and so well equipped and advised militarily by the Russians (in the name of "Arab self-determination"), that the U.S. counter-attack could fail, and leave the Baathists in control, and in a position to extend their power over all the rest of the Arab nations.

--

Also, someone might say that the Baathists could never defeat Israel because the awesome Israeli Air Force would be able to take out any armies streaming toward Israel. But the Israeli Air Force could be unable to hit enough of the massive Iraqi invading force to prevent the little territory of Israel from being overrun. For between Baghdad and Israel is basically flat desert across which massive numbers of Iraqi tanks, armored personnel carriers, and rapid-fire, rapidly-moving tracked howitzers could stream west toward Israel in very wide and staggered formations, which Israel's Air Force could have difficulty taking out quickly. And interspersed liberally among the Iraqi forces could be large numbers of highly-mobile Iraqi SAM units, which could manage to take out most of Israel's Air Force as it's attacking the Iraqi forces. Any Iraqi force configuration which the U.S. will make sure is capable of surviving all of Iran's air and surface defenses and overrunning Iran's relatively huge territory could have no problem with surviving Israel's air and surface defenses at least to the point of still being able to overrun the little territory of Israel.

vinsight4u said in post 303:

I don't see the war in Daniel 11 as being the time of the 4th seal, but the third.

The war itself would be the second seal (Revelation 6:4), the "great sword" of which could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

*******

vinsight4u said in post 304:

The book being referred to as at hand messages, that can't be sealed, made obscure, is the little book that John ate in Rev. 10.

Rev. 22:10's "this book" is the entire book of Revelation, the fulfillment of which is "at hand" (Rev. 22:10, Rev. 1:3), and which the entire church needs to "keep" the sayings of (Rev. 22:7,9, Rev. 1:3), and which Jesus gave through an angel to the entire church (Rev. 22:16, Rev. 1:1-3).

The entire book of Revelation being unsealed (Rev. 22:10) means it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it's written: chronologically & almost-entirely literally (See post 302). Regarding it being chronological, see the "chronological" part of post 210.

vinsight4u said in post 304:

The 7th trumpet would sound and that "mystery of God" part of Revelation would end.

Rev. 10:7's "finished" in the original Greek is "teleo" (G5055), which can mean "performed" (e.g. Lk. 2:39). Rev. 10:7 means the prophetic writings regarding the tribulation will finish being performed at the 7th trumpet of the tribulation. For out of the 7th trumpet's temple opening will come the final stage of the tribulation, the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Rev. 11:19, Rev. 15:5-16:1).

Rev. 10:7's "mystery" is currently known by the church, just as the "mystery" in Rom. 16:25-26 and Col. 1:26 is currently known by the church. For Rev. 10:7's mystery has already been "declared to his servants the prophets" (Rev. 10:7), just as the "mystery" in Rom. 16:25-26 and Col. 1:26 is already "made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets" (Rom. 16:26).

vinsight4u said in post 304:

Rev. 17:7 "...the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns."

Regarding the mystery of the woman in Revelation 17, see the "Babylon" parts of post 256.

Regarding the mystery of the beast that carries her, which has seven heads and ten horns, see post 224.

vinsight4u said in post 304:

The book was shown to John as open in Rev. 10, and he ate it so he could get more visions. "prophesy again"

Regarding "prophesy again" (Rev. 10:11), John's prophecies in the book of Revelation were originally sent to the 1st-century church (Rev. chs. 1-3), which probably expected all of them to be fulfilled shortly thereafter (shortly from the viewpoint of men, not God). But when Revelation's future prophecies (Rev. 4:1) in chs. 6-22 didn't happen right away, as the centuries passed the church began to pay less and less attention to Revelation. It's only in modern times that a significant portion of the church has become interested again in Revelation and the future fulfillment of chs. 6-22, so that in effect John is, through the enduring book of Revelation, "prophesying again" (Rev. 10:11), this time to the modern church, just as he prophesied originally to the early church.

vinsight4u said in post 304:

So after the 7th trumpet mystery of God section ends, comes to John the time of the chapters -where he prophesied again. The rapture of the church time is also shown there, so it was not the mystery of God.

Do you mean the rapture will occur at the 7th trumpet? If so, Jesus' 2nd coming, and so the rapture (2 Thes. 2:1, Mt. 24:30-31), won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Rev. 13:5-18, 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Rev. 11:15). For a "time" (Rev. 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Rev. 12:14). (It's like if someone said "It's time this house gets sold"; this doesn't mean it will get sold immediately.) The only part of Rev. 11:18 that will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come", for the plagues of the vials (Rev. 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly temple opening (Rev. 11:19, 15:5-16:1). So the 7th trumpet (Rev. 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, it won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Cor. 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the entire tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 is over, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Mt. 24:29-31, 1 Thes. 4:15-16), which won't occur until Rev. 19, and which is when the church will be resurrected (Rev. 19:7-20:6, 1 Cor. 15:21-23,51-54, 1 Thes. 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Rev. 16 stage could last for 75 days. For Rev. 16's first vial could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin at the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Mt. 24:15, Dan. 11:31,36), and Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Dan. 12:11-12, Rev. 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Rev. 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Rev. chs. 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will resurrect and judge only the church (1 Cor. 15:21-23, 1 Thes. 4:15-16, Rev. 19:7-20:6, Ps. 50:3-6, cf. Mk. 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Rev. 19:7-8, Mt. 25:1-12). Immediately after that, Rev. 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Rev. 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Rev. 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Rev. 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Rev. 11:18. Everyone not resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be resurrected and judged until Rev. 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the bodily resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Rev. 11:18's "time", for the original Greek word (kairos, G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Cor. 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for some 2,000 years.
 
Upvote 0

eclipsenow

God cares about his creation as well as us.
Dec 17, 2010
8,230
1,701
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟139,901.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
For what person who has ever lived needs a general description of life? It's like throwing Rev. chs. 6-22 into the trash, just to be done with them.

So you can do without general descriptions like "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and love your neighbour as yourself!"

Yeah, totally useless! Just throw it in the trash! :doh: :doh: :doh:
 
Upvote 0
B

Bible2

Guest
vinsight4u said in post 306:

Hi Bible2

Hi.

vinsight4u said in post 306:

Do you see all of the seals are rulers 1-4 in Iraq?

No.

vinsight4u said in post 306:

The first rider was king Faisal that fought the Ottoman Empire and ended up with the land of Iraq.

The first rider, on the white horse (Rev. 6:1-2), could represent the gospel of Jesus (not Jesus himself: Acts 3:21) going forth to all the nations of the earth & victoriously saving souls. For Jesus is the rider on the white horse seen later in Rev. 19:11,13 (cf. Jn. 1:1,14), & his gospel will be preached to all the nations of the earth during the future tribulation (Mt. 24:14, Rev. 14:6). The bow (Rev. 6:2) is a weapon that's able to affect things far away, just as the gospel is able to affect things far away from where it began (Lk. 24:47).

vinsight4u said in post 306:

The peace didn't last in Iraq though, as with the second seal -the rulers of Iraq began to kill each other. "kill one another". The Iraqi land was divided.

The 4th seal names are the same ones found in Habakkuk 2 as to the end-time coming Chaldean. Death Hell death desires to be as hell

The second through fourth seals (Rev. 6:4-8) represent a horrible future war which will begin the coming tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18, which war will, with its aftermath of famines & epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Rev. 6:8). The "great sword" of this war (Rev. 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be started by Iraq (see the "One way this war could happen" part of post 299).

vinsight4u said in post 306:

The 4th seal rider is for sure when the time of Rev. 7 has to have started by, because this time has many ways to slay people = ex. not just with a sword.

The fourth seal will be sometime before Revelation 7, because between the fourth seal and Revelation 7 has to occur the fifth and sixth seals of Revelation 6 (see the "chronological" part of post 210).
 
Upvote 0
B

Bible2

Guest
eclipsenow said in post 308:

So you can do without general descriptions like "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and love your neighbour as yourself!"

That is specific, showing specifically who we are to love, and specifically how we are to love them.

Similarly, Revelation chapters 6 to 18 show specifically (and also chronologically) events that must occur during the future tribulation.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

eclipsenow

God cares about his creation as well as us.
Dec 17, 2010
8,230
1,701
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟139,901.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
That is specific, showing specifically who we are to love, and specifically how we are to love them.

Similarly, Revelation chapters 6 to 18 show specifically (and also chronologically) events that must occur during the future tribulation.

What about generic descriptions that say things like "The kingdom of God is like a mustard seed..."

The Kingdom of God is like a pearl of great value...

The Kingdom of God is like a sower....


These are just too generic and vague to be of use. We should throw them out.
 
Upvote 0

Bethwhite

Regular Member
Feb 12, 2013
1,677
93
✟2,318.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Jesus Christ was not cut off in the middle of the 70th week. He was cut off, per the prophecy of Daniel after 69 weeks. /Then it takes a very long time to get to the 70th week, because in between the 69th and 70th weeks would come a lot of desolations. There is a determined time of desolations within the 70 determined weeks prophecy.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince (JESUS) shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah (JESUS) be cut off, but not for himself: (Hebrews 7:27) and the people of the prince that shall come (JESUS) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (Matt 22:7); and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (Luke 19:41-44)

27 And he (JESUS) shall confirm the(NEW) covenant with many for one week: (Romans 11:25-27) and in the midst of the week he (JESUS) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (Hebrews 7 & 9), and for the overspreading of abominations ( Israel's sins - Ezek/Daniel) he (JESUS) shall make it desolate (Ezek 14:21), even until the consummation, (Daniel 11:35) and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (Israel).

Matt 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.


Ezek 14:21 For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Hebres 7:26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
B

Bible2

Guest
eclipsenow said in post 311:

What about generic descriptions that say things like "The kingdom of God is like a mustard seed..."

The Kingdom of God is like a pearl of great value...

The Kingdom of God is like a sower....


These are just too generic and vague to be of use. We should throw them out.

No, for they point to specific and different aspects of the kingdom of God.

Also, the Bible makes clear they are parables, by calling them "parables", &/or by using in them words such as "like" & "as", & by presenting them as things which already happened. But nothing in Rev. chs. 6-22 requires they're a parable, instead of them being almost entirely literal. Also, nothing in Rev. chs. 6-22 requires they're things which already happened, instead of "things which must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1).
 
Upvote 0
B

Bible2

Guest
vinsight4u said in post 314:

So what you're saying is that the Iraqi ruler in Daniel 11:15-19 could gain the nukes in Israel?

No, for right at the end of the war, Israel would be careful to fly all of its unused nuclear weapons to a U.S. base in Europe for safekeeping until Israel can be restored by the U.S.

Those weapons could then end up staying on that base, for it could turn out that a restoration of Israel by the U.S. will never occur. For if the Baathists defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt (see post 299), and the U.S. begins a counter-attack to "restore" (i.e. to take back) Israel and Egypt by attempting a huge amphibious assault on occupied Egypt, the Baathists could cut the invasion force to shreds in the sea by firing tens of thousands of rockets and missiles (well-camouflaged & -dispersed on flat roofs in densely populated areas close to shore), resulting in the loss of something like 30,000 U.S. military personnel in a single day. This anti-Inchon could cause a huge uproar among the U.S. public, which could cry out: "What are we doing over there? Who cares about Egypt? And why in the world do the Israelis have to live in that awful region surrounded by so many hateful and powerful enemies? Let all the Israelis come over here to America and live in freedom and peace with us. Why should any more of our precious young men be slaughtered over this madness in the Middle East?" And so the U.S. could withdraw from attempting any more counter-attacks to "restore" Israel and Egypt. Also, a bankruptcy of the U.S. government at this same time because of a massive run on the U.S. dollar after its disastrous failure in the counter-attack could render the U.S. simply unable for a time to finance any more huge military invasions overseas.

The U.S. could instead blockade the Baathists with its Navy and call an emergency session of the U.N. Security Council to address the situation. But Russia and China could veto any votes to send in U.N. forces, saying: "What right does the world have to interfere in this act of Arab self-determination? How is Arab Iraq and Syria invading Arab Palestine and Egypt to establish a free union of Arabs any different than the American North invading the American South during the American Civil War to establish a free union of Americans? Should the U.N. invade the U.S. to restore the Confederacy? And how is the Arabs throwing the Jews off their ancestral land any different than the U.S. throwing the American Indians off their ancestral lands? Should the U.N. invade the U.S. to restore the American Indians to their ancestral lands?"

The U.S. could then turn to the U.N. General Assembly, only to have its spokesman hooted and shouted from the podium by a world that is jealous of America's power: "Ha! Ha! Great America is defeated! And no one wants to help it restore its hegemony over the Middle East!" The U.S. could then turn to NATO, only to have the Europeans turn down its request to send the armies of Europe (as they could say) "into the jaws of death, and for what?" Russia and China, seeing America's isolation, could then send in military "advisors" into an ever-expanding "United Arab States" and shore it up with massive amounts of military hardware and training. Oil-thirsty China could do so in exchange for cheap oil, and oil-rich Russia could sell its military hardware in exchange for huge amounts of cash (and just to be able to thumb its nose at a defeated U.S. and keep the U.S. from taking back hegemony over the Middle East).

Ultimately, after the Baathists have completed taking control of the entire Arab Middle East and North Africa, the U.S. could find itself completely blocked out of those regions and all of their oil, but could say that it is those regions that are blockaded by the huge U.S. Navy. To get around the U.S. naval blockade, China could lay an oil pipeline from the Middle East to a point on the coast of the Indian Ocean (where oil tankers could get the oil) beyond the blockade. (Also, if most of the U.S. Navy gets deployed to blockade the huge region controlled by the Baathists, China could see that as the time for it to make an all-out attempt to restore Taiwan to mainland Chinese control, and also to take control of every disputed island -- and every oil and gas-rich undersea territory -- in the South China Sea.) Russia could get around the U.S. naval blockade by sending into the Middle East and North Africa any military hardware sales it would have delivered by ship, by delivering them instead via rail and trucks crossing the Caucasus and western Iran. And Europe could get around the blockade and obtain oil from the Middle East and North Africa by building a pipeline across the Bosporus, and possibly even by digging a pipeline tunnel under the Strait of Gibraltar.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

eclipsenow

God cares about his creation as well as us.
Dec 17, 2010
8,230
1,701
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟139,901.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
No, for they point to specific and different aspects of the kingdom of God.

Also, the Bible makes clear they are parables, by calling them "parables", &/or by using in them words such as "like" & "as", & by presenting them as things which already happened. But nothing in Rev. chs. 6-22 requires they're a parable, instead of them being almost entirely literal. Also, nothing in Rev. chs. 6-22 requires they're things which already happened, instead of "things which must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1).

The only difference is that John uses the apocalyptic genre of writing, which bible scholars and historians recognising as having similarities to parables and metaphors. You simply don't have the authority to push ENGLISH grammar rules for similie onto Jewish writing styles! English uses metaphor as well, and metaphors don't use "like" and "as" do they? Try and prove they do! Go ahead. Be my guest. Metaphors in English don't use the conventions you demand of Revelation, so why on earth do you require them in Hebrew? The reality is you just don't know what you're talking about.

You simply don't understand that as John wrote Revelation he was basically saying "In the kingdom of God, suffering is like..." Even though the words "is like" never turn up. That's what the imagery is about. That's what's happening.

Or "corrupt governments are like..."

Or "In the Last Days, the temptation to trust in wealth is like..."

You simply don't have an answer for this do you?

Consider it this way: Daniel saw various visions, and then the whacky imagery was explained by an angel. They were not LITERAL visions were they? They were highly symbolic visions of the empires that were coming. But John mixes the visions up! John takes Daniel and reinterprets it in a general genre of apocalyptic symbolism. He specifically merges Daniel's beasts together to make one! By doing that, for example, John is in effect saying he's not talking about a specific kingdom. It's ANY time governments or dictators rise up against God's people! This is simply how John uses the language.
 
Upvote 0