What are the "Waters"?

[inthec]

That would mean that everything in the universe was created out of water, and water is formed out of energy. I also think that the universe is made up out of invisible ‘poles’, which have helixes rotating around them. These poles are random, and they exist as possibilities. The universe is based around a virtual pole, on the grand scale, but at the other end are countless billions of possibilities. As long as this universe exists, there are possibilities. When the universe is destroyed, then everything goes into chaotic nothingness, an anti-existence, where nothing is possible.

That "rotation" you speak of may also explain gravity. For if you have a box full of tops all spinning in one direction, the box will have a tendency to rotate.

 

[inthec]

Perhaps, at the end of the Day, the light is separated from the darkness, and the sons of light will inherit the light, and the sons of darkness will inherit the darkness.

You know, I think you are exactly right on this. I have arrived at this point a few times myself.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

You know, I think you are exactly right on this. I have arrived at this point a few times myself.

I think it’s the teaching of the Holy Spirit, which leads to the idea, as also to other matters about creation.

 

[Calminian]

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

The earth was a formless deep dark abyss. The text seems to suggest that the waters were what was formed first, and nothing else.

We first read of them in Genesis, before the Earth was even made. Also notice that the "heavens" were created in this same chapter as the "waters" are being organized. Sometimes I think the term "waters" has another meaning, maybe something like strings or the Higgs-boson. Something that all matter has in common. If we glean information from the rest of the bible, we see the elements will be destroyed with fervent heat and dissolve, if this is the case, then there must be something common throughout the heavens that can be effected at once.

That would mean that everything in the universe was created out of water, and water is formed out of energy. I also think that the universe is made up out of invisible ‘poles’, which have helixes rotating around them. These poles are random, and they exist as possibilities. The universe is based around a virtual pole, on the grand scale, but at the other end are countless billions of possibilities. As long as this universe exists, there are possibilities. When the universe is destroyed, then everything goes into chaotic nothingness, an anti-existence, where nothing is possible.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

God said that the light was good. Notice however that God did not say that the darkness was good. So what was the darkness? It was separated from the light.

5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.

Perhaps, at the end of the Day, the light is separated from the darkness, and the sons of light will inherit the light, and the sons of darkness will inherit the darkness.

The only problem I have with this is this last part about darkness. Is darkness really bad? I have trouble with that because scripture says God created the day/night cycle and then said everything he created was very good. There's no mention of the darkness being bad, just conjecture that God created light and it was good, therefore darkness must be bad. But this is never conveyed that nighttime was bad in the pre fallen world. In fact, there's no implication that the fall even occurred at night, but during the day.

Also, per the idea that the waters are the Holy Spirit, I don't think that follows either. For the spirit of God was said to be hovering over the waters. Was it hovering over itself?

The implication seems to be the waters are the raw unformed unorganized elements the Spirit used to create the organized world. Specifically Peter says the land was formed out of the water, and he most certainly was referring to Genesis 1:9-10.

The way I view the passage, the waters of Genesis 1:2 are the building blocks of both the land and sea (including rivers and all other elements).

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

The implication seems to be the waters are the raw unformed unorganized elements the Spirit used to create the organized world. Specifically Peter says the land was formed out of the water, and he most certainly was referring to Genesis 1:9-10.

I agree; the waters are the raw unformed unorganized elements, (water) out of which the Spirit made everything. I get the feeling that there was originally no night, only day, and twilight, that’s just a hunch I suppose. I have a book by Robert Sungenis, it’s about the scientific evidence for a geocentric universe. The theory goes that space is no empty, it is actually a solid, (invisible) and other materials like planets are less dense objects, sitting within a solid space, a bit like the idea of ‘space-time’ but with rejecting the theory of relativity altogether. Gravity is caused by the displacement of the either, by a less dense object than the either, attracting less dense material, to fill the displaced space.

About the darkness. It is a general feeling that there is more going on in the text than just a description of light and day. More like some sort of cosmic conspiracy; that there was a deal struck, perhaps with the darkness, in order for the material creation to go ahead. The darkness is where al the rubbish ends up, excluded from the light, at the end of time. 2 Peter also says that the universe will disintegrate with the elements, causing heat. Perhaps this happens because the will of God is l lifted, and everything disintegrates because there is nothing remaining to hold anything together in any order.

 

[Calminian]

The implication seems to be the waters are the raw unformed unorganized elements the Spirit used to create the organized world. Specifically Peter says the land was formed out of the water, and he most certainly was referring to Genesis 1:9-10.

I agree; the waters are the raw unformed unorganized elements, (water) out of which the Spirit made everything. I get the feeling that there was originally no night, only day, and twilight, that’s just a hunch I suppose. I have a book by Robert Sungenis, it’s about the scientific evidence for a geocentric universe. The theory goes that space is no empty, it is actually a solid, (invisible) and other materials like planets are less dense objects, sitting within a solid space, a bit like the idea of ‘space-time’ but with rejecting the theory of relativity altogether. Gravity is caused by the displacement of the either, by a less dense object than the either, attracting less dense material, to fill the displaced space.

About the darkness. It is a general feeling that there is more going on in the text than just a description of light and day. More like some sort of cosmic conspiracy; that there was a deal struck, perhaps with the darkness, in order for the material creation to go ahead. The darkness is where al the rubbish ends up, excluded from the light, at the end of time. 2 Peter also says that the universe will disintegrate with the elements, causing heat. Perhaps this happens because the will of God is l lifted, and everything disintegrates because there is nothing remaining to hold anything together in any order.

So God had to compromise with the devil when He made the world? It's an extra-biblical theory at best. The sons of God were said to rejoice when God laid the foundations of the land (erets) - Job 38:4-7. That's the earliest we can pinpoint angelic existence in scripture. God formed the land in verse 9 of the first chapter of Genesis, which was day 3.

It would appear then, just to speculate, God either made angels from the waters or from the light. We as humans have our roots in the waters, as the land was made from the waters, and Adam was formed out of the ground. Angels are a little different though. They seem to have intrinsic attributes of light. They are often called stars (see same Job passage). The are very often reported to be emitting light or glowing in various circumstances.

It would seem very logical to me that God created them on day one when he created light. Indeed the first light source may have been an angel.

We're never given any direct information about angels in the Bible, only indirect info, when their paths directly cross ours. But there is another reason I don't believe Angels pre-existed the world. We are told their domain is heaven! And heaven was created, at least in its initial form, on day 1. It would seem unlikely they existed without a prior domain.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

It depends on the meaning of ‘heaven’. Perhaps in the Genesis account, we are only talking about the sky, and outer space, as heaven, and not the supernatural realm of God, which we also confusingly call heaven. If heaven is without time, there still must have been a beginning, for the angels to have been created, and not always existing.

 

[Calminian]

It depends on the meaning of ‘heaven’. Perhaps in the Genesis account, we are only talking about the sky, and outer space, as heaven, and not the supernatural realm of God, which we also confusingly call heaven. If heaven is without time, there still must have been a beginning, for the angels to have been created, and not always existing.

But here's the problem I find with the idea of a spiritual heaven. It's never mentioned in scripture. The idea of a non-geographical place called heaven is never once conveyed.

Perhaps it's a concept that seems to make sense, as angels are thought to be spiritual beings, and therefore must live in a spiritual place, but even this doesn't logically follow. Angels do just fine in the physical world, and there is nothing in scripture to suggest they are not physical beings themselves. Certainly they are different than us, but there is no mention of them being non-physical. In fact they are reported to walk on the ground, eat and drink, even get their feet washed. Depending on how you read Genesis 6, they may be able to do a whole lot more.

So, a question: If angels can exist in our physical realm, and move through it, and enjoy it, why would they need a spiritual realm? When you look at how vast the cosmos is, and how beautiful and majestic it is, why wouldn't that suffice? Do they need oxygen like us? Are they sensitive to low or high temperatures?

From everything we read in scripture heaven is a physical place. Why the need for a spiritual place, in fact, what would that even be? Our spiritual nature has to do with out will. Does the spiritual aspect of heaven have a will, and make decisions? Does scripture ever define a place as having a spiritual nature? Frankly I don't think places can be spiritual. Only individuals can.

 

[inthec]

I think the "waters" are more than just unorganized elements. Its the blank canvass, its the fabric of time.

Even the emptiness of pure space has this quality, else how does a electromagnetic wave propagate through it? There has to be a media.

Ask yourself this question: if you were suspended in space, with absolutely nothing around, no matter at all except you, would time still exist? Of course it would. So what causes it? Those are the "waters" I believe. They give elements their half-lives, this whole reality is bound to 186,000 miles per second, the speed of light. Is it any wonder that the rainbow is described behind Gods throne? That rainbow signifies light, the law we are bound by.

Revelation 4:3
And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

Ezekiel 1:28
As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

 

[inthec]

But here's the problem I find with the idea of a spiritual heaven. It's never mentioned in scripture. The idea of a non-geographical place called heaven is never once conveyed.

Perhaps it's a concept that seems to make sense, as angels are thought to be spiritual beings, and therefore must live in a spiritual place, but even this doesn't logically follow. Angels do just fine in the physical world, and there is nothing in scripture to suggest they are not physical beings themselves. Certainly they are different than us, but there is no mention of them being non-physical. In fact they are reported to walk on the ground, eat and drink, even get their feet washed. Depending on how you read Genesis 6, they may be able to do a whole lot more.

So, a question: If angels can exist in our physical realm, and move through it, and enjoy it, why would they need a spiritual realm? When you look at how vast the cosmos is, and how beautiful and majestic it is, why wouldn't that suffice? Do they need oxygen like us? Are they sensitive to low or high temperatures?

From everything we read in scripture heaven is a physical place. Why the need for a spiritual place, in fact, what would that even be? Our spiritual nature has to do with out will. Does the spiritual aspect of heaven have a will, and make decisions? Does scripture ever define a place as having a spiritual nature? Frankly I don't think places can be spiritual. Only individuals can.

So, in short, the spirit or soul of man is something material that is tangible? How can that be?

 

[Cappadocious]

This article on the Firmament as a dome holding back the celestial waters is pertinent:

http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted...s/Text/Articles-Books/Seely-Firmament-WTJ.pdf

A diagram of the Near-Eastern cosmology utilized in Genesis:

 

[Papias]

Cappadocius-

Yes. Here is the Genesis version with the names we are more familiar with:
Papias

 

[granpa]

Diné Bahaneʼ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Cappadocious]

Cappadocius-

Yes. Here is the Genesis version with the names we are more familiar with:
Papiashttp://3.bp.blogspot.com/_keP8xgKfxpY/TRsq8yTq9AI/AAAAAAAAAN4/h5Mdl2__8dU/s1600/OT%2Bcosmology2.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]


Papias!

Thank you for this diagram! I've been looking for something like this for a while and had given up hope of finding it.

The only thing I question is the 'heaven realm' above the sky waters. I think that YHWH was seen as residing in shekhi'na cloud upon the firmament (also one of the reasons why he was associated with mountains, but there is another major significance to mountains), rather that an upper realm somewhere.

In Mesopotamian cosmology you don't find anything beyond the saltwaters, either.

 

[Papias]

Cappadocious wrote:

The only thing I question is the 'heaven realm' above the sky waters. I think that YHWH was seen as residing in shekhi'na cloud upon the firmament

I'm not sure. Perhaps that minor point was seen differently at different times. In Job it describes God as "walking on the firmament", though in some translations this is changed to make it sound more modern.

Job 22:14
Thick clouds are a covering to him, so that he seeth not; And he walketh on the vault of heaven.

Papias!

Thank you for this diagram! I've been looking for something like this for a while and had given up hope of finding it.

You are welcome. That's funny, because you supplied me with a Sumerian one, which I didn't have. You might want to look at others - doing a google image search on "ancient hebrew cosmology" turns up dozens like the one posted.

Enjoy-

Papias


dfgv

 

[Cappadocious]

In Job it describes God as "walking on the firmament", though in some translations this is changed to make it sound more modern.

Yes, but this seems to suggest a movement on the face of the firmament, as the luminaries move upon it. They were originally considered "el" after all, so it would make sense that YHWH would reside with His council of powers.

 

[Assyrian]

This article on the Firmament as a dome holding back the celestial waters is pertinent:

http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted...s/Text/Articles-Books/Seely-Firmament-WTJ.pdf

A diagram of the Near-Eastern cosmology utilized in Genesis:

Cappadocius-

Yes. Here is the Genesis version with the names we are more familiar with:
Papias

The Genesis version has underworld beneath the earth (presumably sheol?) while the Sumerian has Ap-au primordial freshwater sea and says the earth contains the underworld Ki-gal. Have a look at the description of the promised land in Deu 8:7 For the LORD thy God bringeth thee into a good land, a land of brooks of water, of fountains and depths, springing forth in valleys and hills. The depths that are a source of freshwater springs is tehom the abyss or deep, source of the fountain of the deep in the flood, which we first meet in Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters. Hebrew cosmology had a freshwater abyss underneath the earth too.

 

[Smidlee]

I think people are reading more into these texts that is really there. I think waters is simply waters.
I have read the scripture many times and never saw the heavens as a solid dome. This is the beauty of the scriptures as it has to be written simple enough to be understood through time and different languages.
If you think the heaven as a solid dome then you will read that in scripture. If you have a modern knowledge of the heavens then you will not read "the solid dome" when studying the Bible.

I personally don't think the early writers were suggesting the heavens was a solid dome no more than God having hands,eyes going to and fro, feet,etc. Just because the scripture claims the clouds were the dust of God's feet doesn't mean the writer believed God had actually feet. Yet "God having feet" is something that can be understood throughout the ages.

 

[inthec]

Well, since we are posting pictures:

 

[Cappadocious]

I have read the scripture many times and never saw the heavens as a solid dome.

That is, however, how the Hebrews understood it.