They Denied Him 3 Times

AMDG

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What exactly is "fair and square" about one country invading another's territory?

"Fair and square war" is an oxymoron.

No country should ever be able to establish its capitol on illegally seized territories.

But this helps me to understand how you understand the concept of fairness.

Surely you must remember. Israel was the one attacked. And Jerusalem was the capital of Israel since Biblical times.

And if we are going to play the game of winners aren't entitled to spoils of war--then what part of what country is going back to what people? Seems like every country was once someone else's property--until they lost it.
 
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MKJ

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Surely you must remember. Israel was the one attacked. And Jerusalem was the capital of Israel since Biblical times.

And if we are going to play the game of winners aren't entitled to spoils of war--then what part of what country is going back to what people? Seems like every country was once someone else's property--until they lost it.


Israel as a nation in Biblical times is not the same as Israel as it was established in modern times. Modern Israel was established by political actions, not by God, and those political actions did not give them all of Jerusalem.

You might want to read up on just war doctrine as well.
 
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Rhamiel

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Israel as a nation in Biblical times is not the same as Israel as it was established in modern times. Modern Israel was established by political actions, not by God, and those political actions did not give them all of Jerusalem.

You might want to read up on just war doctrine as well.

yes, the Church rightly recognizes Herself as being the fullfilment of Israel, the People of God
the Modern Zionest State is not Biblical Israel
the land was taken by european christians and given to european jews
the modern state of Israel is one of the last vestages of Colonialism
 
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MKJ

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I am not accusing you, but I feel that there is a lot of veiled antisemitism in the liberal movement, meaning worldwide.

I've really never ever seen this, but that may be a geographical issue. I think though that a lot of people who might be described as liberals just have serious issues with the way Israel has acted as a state. Yes bombing other nations and committing terror attacks is very bad and even evil. But there is something that seems very cold about systematically denying water to people who are not combatants at all - that kind of thing seems so dispassionately wrong it is very hard to sympathize with it.

Which isn't to say that they are totally happy with the way the surrounding Arab nations have acted, but they aren't in some cases being led by democratic governments, and they aren't getting the support of the West in the same way Israel has. If you know your money is going to support a state you think is doing bad things, it gives you a little more reason to complain.

It's an anecdotal story, but I had a boss who worked in Israel in the 70's during a rather tense period - he was military. A very nice, gentle man by nature. He went over being very pro-Israel, and when he came back his perspective had changed entirely. He was very upset at what he saw happening there not just by individuals but by the Israeli state. He wasn't an unrealistic or soft person either, he was an infanteer and pretty pragmatic.

Of course I'm not obliged to see things the same way, but I do trust his impression that there was something wrong going on there.
 
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MKJ

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yes, the Church rightly recognizes Herself as being the fullfilment of Israel, the People of God
the Modern Zionest State is not Biblical Israel
the land was taken by european christians and given to european jews
the modern state of Israel is one of the last vestages of Colonialism


Yeah, hindsight is 20/20 of course, but it is hard to see how they thought it was going to turn out well. People at the time predicted this outcome.

On the other hand, there were terrible things going on throughout this century to the Jewish people. I suppose it seemed like the best hope of a solution to many.
 
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AMDG

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the land was taken by european christians and given to european jews
the modern state of Israel is one of the last vestages of Colonialism

Except that some of those people are in fact people the people who *have* lived there since Biblical times--those who you would call "Palestinians". The ones who are now claiming to be "Palestinians" are actually Muslim "Syrians".

When Britian gave up its colonial possession, part went to Israel and the other part was to go to the natives who were living in the territory. Of course, somehow Syria, Egypt, and Jordan annexed that land. (Funny, even though those countries have more than enough land, no one is asking them to give back the land they took.) And even though the people were invited to stay by Israel, the Muhftis convinced the people to leave so that they would be able to come back after Israel was wiped from the map. Many *did* stay and are now Israeli citizens with all the rights of an Israeli citizen. Those that went in hope that Israel would be destroyed, were treated badly by their fellow Muslims.

You know that there probably could be peace tomorrow if the terrorists just would acknowledge Israel's right to exist.
 
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Fantine

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Although there had been skirmishes between Israel and Palestine, the war started in this way:

Preemptive strike v. unjustified attack
At the commencement of hostilities, both Egypt and Israel announced that they had been attacked by the other country.[153] The Israeli government later abandoned its initial position, acknowledging Israel had struck first, claiming that it was a pre-emptive strike in the face of a planned invasion by the Arab countries.[153][154] On the other hand, the Arab view was that it was an unjustified attack.[155][156]

Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Virgil the Roman

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I am amazed that when land is won "fair and square" in a war, it is termed "illegal".

Rather, You mean they stole the land, conquered more land, and then blasted the hell of out the Palestinian brothers of theirs --- all the while exclaiming that this land is theirs by Divine Right (even though the majority of Jews are descended from Jewish Khazar converts and something around 20-30% are actually even Jewish (the Sephardic), the Eastern European ones, are by and large, Jewish Khazars.

And all the while, most real Jews opposed Zionism from the on-set; seeing it for the political ideology that it is.
 
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Virgil the Roman

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I'm not discussing Israel's innocence, I'm saying that the other party involved is not just a bunch of poor victims.

You are correct. Yet, not all Palestinian Moslems or Christians are bad. Many are stuck between a rock and hard place. And their lives are total crap between being stuck between an colonialistic Jewish Supremacist Israeli state and groups like Hamas and Fatah that play upon peoples' fears and miseries . . ..

:smoke:
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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The point is that Israel has been a nuclear power for years, and many Israeli government officials are very militaristic. In this article published yesterday they are talking about drawing a line in the sand and expressing dissatisfaction with international efforts.

Israeli security cabinet meeting adjourned due to leaks on secret Iran strategy talks - The Washington Post

Israel is the fourth largest lobby in the U.S.

I don't think any liberals are disputing Israel's right to the land they were given by the international community in 1949, and they are committed to defending them. They are concerned about the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands, including East Jerusalem.



Israeli-occupied territories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My consciousness was raised by a young man who had spent several summers in Israel (until he was apprehended by Israeli police, driven to the Egyptian border, thrown out of the country, and banned for 8 years). He worked with Palestinians and also with Israelis who disagree with the militaristic solutions of their leaders. I interviewed him for an article, and invited him to speak at a group I belonged to. In our long conversation at a coffee house, his first-hand experience convinced me that Israel is overstepping its bounds.



The point is, that you seem to be evading the point. Bailiff.
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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Obama is going to have a hard time with the Jewish vote, because of his speech against the Jewish settlements in the West Bank, and a call to return the borders of Israel to the pre 1967 position. This is the current UN Resolution for the peace agreement back in the 1967 war, but Israel has refused to comply.

Also, with Romney promising Netanyahu everything including support for Jerusalem as the Capital, the Jewish lobby has turned against Obama and I've seen in other forums the negative propaganda in Jewish News publications showing that the are supporting Romney.

Americans must face the truth in that any candidate that does not support Israel fully, will never be elected or re-elected. Jimmy Carter and Pat Buchanan learned the lesson the hard way.

My fear is that if Romney gets elected, Netanyahu will sucker him into attacking Iran, just as Bush was suckered into attacking Iraq.


Jim


Jim, how did the post 1967 borders come about ? I will save you the time Jim.


Israel launched a preemptive attack:

Arab preparations

On the eve of the war, Egypt massed approximately 100,000 of its 160,000 troops in the Sinai, including all of its seven divisions (four infantry, two armored and one mechanized), four independent infantry brigades and four independent armored brigades. No fewer than a third of them were veterans of Egypt's intervention into the Yemen Civil War and another third were reservists. These forces had 950 tanks, 1,100 APCs and more than 1,000 artillery pieces.[64]
At the same time some Egyptian troops (15,000–20,000) were still fighting in Yemen.[65][66][67] Nasser's ambivalence about his goals and objectives was reflected in his orders to the military. The general staff changed the operational plan four times in May 1967, each change requiring the redeployment of troops, with the inevitable toll on both men and vehicles.[68]
Towards the end of May, Nasser finally forbade the general staff from proceeding with the Qahir ("Victory") plan, which called for a light infantry screen in the forward fortifications with the bulk of the forces held back to conduct a massive counterattack against the main Israeli advance when identified, and ordered a forward defense of the Sinai.[68] In the meantime, he continued to take actions intended to increase the level of mobilization of Egypt, Syria and Jordan, in order to bring pressure on Israel.
Syria's army had a total strength of 75,000 and amassed them along the Syrian border.[69] Jordan's army had 55,000 troops[70] and 300 tanks along the Jordanian border, 250 of which were U.S. M48 Patton, sizable amounts of M113 APCs, a new battalion of mechanized infantry, and a paratrooper battalion trained in the new U.S.-built school. They also had 12 battalions of artillery and six batteries of 81 mm and 120 mm mortars.[71]
Documents captured by the Israelis from various Jordanian command posts record orders from the end of May for the Hashemite Brigade to capture Ramot Burj Bir Mai'in in a night raid, codenamed "Operation Khaled". The aim was to establish a bridgehead together with positions in Latrun for an armored capture of Lod and Ramle. The "go" codeword was Sa'ek and end was Nasser. The Jordanians planned for the capture of Motza and Sha'alvim in the strategic Jerusalem Corridor. Motza was tasked to Infantry Brigade 27 camped near Ma'ale Adummim: "The reserve brigade will commence a nighttime infiltration onto Motza, will destroy it to the foundation, and won't leave a remnant or refugee from among its 800 residents".[71]
100 Iraqi tanks and an infantry division were readied near the Jordanian border. Two squadrons of fighter-aircraft, Hawker Hunters and MiG 21, were rebased adjacent to the Jordanian border.[71]
On June 2, Jordan called up all reserve officers, and the West Bank commander met with community leaders in Ramallah to request assistance and cooperation for his troops during the war, assuring them that "in three days we'll be in Tel-Aviv".[71]
The Arab air forces were aided by volunteer pilots from the Pakistan Air Force acting in independent capacity, and by some aircraft from Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia to make up for the massive losses suffered on the first day of the war.[72]
 
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Fantine

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Your initial point, Eastcoast, was that Democrats booed God.

I posted a video of the vote, which showed that "God" was combined with the issue of Jerusalem as the capital city of Israel.

Because the West Bank was seized by Israel, the only nuclear power in the Middle East, with the most powerful nation in the world as its ally, and because the Palestinians in the West Bank are subjected daily to oppression and human rights violations, the Democrats had mixed feelings.

Many Democrats were rightfully uncomfortable about a country setting up a capital on illegally seized land.

And most Democrats believe that the Israelis would be safer if they just let their nuclear bomb be the deterrent, not their confrontational behavior.

I would be willing to bet that Israel's militancy gives most political administrations as much agita as Ahmadinejad's nuclear dreams. I would also bet that, next to North Korea, Israel is second most likely in the world to launch a preemptive or unprovoked nuclear attack.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Jim, how did the post 1967 borders come about ? I will save you the time Jim.


Israel launched a preemptive attack:


Of course what's left out is Israeli's encroachment in the Golan Heights, and in Gaza, which made even Moshe Dayan respond that the lust for land by the Israeli's was frightening.

The Israeli's lead the list in ignoring UN Security Resolutions;

Study: Israel leads in ignoring Security Council resolutions



Study: Israel leads in ignoring Security Council resolutions - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper

Yeah, it's for their defense. But the the Palestinian terrorist attacks are justified by them, in that it's for their defense.

Only divine intervention will bring peace between the two sides. Mean while, the USA should do as Pat Buchanan said and as Obama was doing, our Middle East Policies should be based on what's good for the USA, period.




Jim
 
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FearlessFreep

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True. If someone doesn't even agree with the basic right that you exist or have a right to exist' as well as constantly reminding the Jewish people that they face annihilation, then everything else is off the table.
It's kinda of like how liberals don't think babies in the womb have a right to exist.
 
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