- Jan 25, 2009
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Blessings 
I was writing due to how I have often seen alot of battles that've gone down over the years, be it between Young Earth Creationists or Old Earth Creationists or Secular Evolutionists on how whether or not a flood ever occurred on the Earth---and for those that do, the battle often seems to go for whether it was a global or a local one.
Although I am currently an Old Earth Creationist, I grew up within YEC circles and felt that many things they noted seemed to make sense...and thus, I have never really been 100% sold out to either one spectrum at all points. Alot of times, I feel as if I'm a bit of a oddity whenever the battles rage on and I'm simply trying to find truth and accuracy..one side saying that the Flood HAD to be Global /all encompassing in scope while another sides says that it could only be local. Though I know you've said you're a Theistic Evolutionists, Your thoughts seem to be more so in line with aspects of Old Earth Creationism
But in wrestling on the subject, it occurred to me that perhaps both sides often polarize over issues that are not really necessary. When I consider the Flood, I think it can be both LOCAL and Global. For myself, discussing "localized floods" is to be taken as meaning what Noah experienced LOCALLY was apart of what may've been occurring GLOBALLY if the mechnanisms that God used (i.e. glaciers melting, Polar Ice Caps, Ice Age, Tsunami, etc) happen to have set off chain reactions that affected other parts of the planet simultaneously and resulted in local floods of immense size/scope happening GLOBALLY.
IMHO, there's more than enough scientific evidence showing that at some point---whether that be Post-Ice Age or Pre---there were many floods of IMMENSE magnitude around the world in many areas....and that is the context of "Global Flood", which many scientists have been more than open to when seeing just how much damage could have occurred due to that. If wishing to discuss the issue of water covering the entire areas where civilization occurred, films have been made on the issue....be it with "2012" and the Mega-Tsumamis occurring due to what played out with Earth Crust Displacement Theory or the film "The Day After Tommorrow" where Global Warming led to immesne problems with weather conditions and the sea level rose immensely to flood many areas. One could even consider the film "Water World" with Kevin Costner...where the setting of the film is the distant future and the background is one very much connected with the concept of Global Warming since the polar ice caps have completely melted, and the sea level has risen many thousands of feet, covering virtually all the land...
It also seems, IMHO, that global flooding can be seen in the clear flood legends from other parts of the world....as many of them apart from the Biblical text describe flooding happening rapidly rather than gradually..and as it concerns what I've said in seeing Flooding in a Global aspect within the form of multiple localized floods--either all together or back -to -back (ripple effect) and prolonging devestation in certain areas while making it possible to reach other places as they catch the tail end of things. ...with each localized flood doing extensive damage to the world's of others while those others may've never realized that what they experienced perhaps had its connections in something else that may've happened locally.
Surely, if Tsumami Waves from an underwater Earthquake (with earthquakes happening ALL The time/in differing levels) could damage Japan Severely...and yet still be felt in California or other parts of the U.S Coast..and it has been the case that Super WAVES OF EVEN More immense magnitude have occurred to do far more damage/wash inland very far, there's no logical reason (IMHO ) to assume that it could not have happened before. Science shows that such things could have been going on for a long time, if not in more severe ways depending on where the planet was at ecologically at the moment. ...and as many have even said that Super-Quakes have only occurred on certain conditions and at specific faults with devestating consequences, its hard for me to throw that out.
Something else I must also consider is how today we see a surprising number of cities existing deep underwater. Off of the western coast of India a city has been discovered recently, which is one hundred and twenty feet under water in the Gulf of Cambay. It measures five miles long by two miles wide. Things such as human remains, tools, pottery etc. have been recovered and confirm that this was indeed a very old human civilization. Yet another underwater city has been discovered off of the southeastern coast of India near Mahabalipuram at about twenty five feet deep. Ancient artifacts and carvings and perhaps even some kind of religious temple has been discovered. It has been estimated to be five thousand years old. Another one can be found off of the Coast of Japan, as it concerns a massive temple hundreds of ft. deep. One must wonder how all of those cities that used to be where others lived came to be so deep under the waters...
Some say that all of the stories of Global Floods around the world are simply a matter of a Flood described in one culture being located in the area of the Middle East or Africa somehow ..and then later, a survivor came from that area left and somehow reached the Native Americans to share his story, as they have their own version of when a Great Flood covered the entire earth.
I disagree with that, though, as it'd be more logical that perhaps the same thing was occurring all around the world...
With Native American stories of the Flood, they've been very fascinating to see how they described what occurred---and for reference, one can go online/investigate the following under their respective titles:
No one expects others to check out every resource...as its there just in case anyone would like to do their own investigation. From where I stand, how can one explain the worldwide dominance of stories of this kind of catastrophe, if they did not have a common basis? A common origin lends to the Biblical model, according to which the flood story would be spread from Asia Minor by the few survivors of the flood as they repopulated the earth....and a more practical orgin would be that the Flood occurred world-wide in a series of massive flooding in many areas while the Biblical text itself was focused on discussing the Flood occurring within their own area that had (in their mind) a Global effect on many things, whereas other cultures would have been experiencing similar things as well.
And on the issue of others experiencing floods all over, as was noted in the film "The Day After Tommorrow", it seems really logical to believe there may have been many floods. Seriously, the volume of ice is so large that if the Greenland ice sheet melted, it would cause sea levels to rise six meters (20 ft) all around the world. Additionally, f the Antarctic ice sheet melted, sea levels would rise up to 65 meters (210 ft). And if the many Ice Ages that the planet has gone through has seen such, what would be ANY different with other cultures/parts of human civilization near those areas where the caps were close to seeing the same....and then afterward either staying where they were/passing their stories down the ages or simply spreading out to other areas and remembering what happened before?
Something to consider, as it concerns the Biblical Flood account, is that note is that if examining the topography of the Persian Gulf, Iran, Arabia, the Strait of Hormuz and the proximal Indian Ocean with the continental shelf, one will noticed that the shallow seas cover the Persian Gulf, the Strait of Hormuz (Bandar Abbas in Iran to the northern tip of Oman.). That specific narrow strait was likely a land bridge during the Ice Age when sea levels were low enough to expose the Bering Strait Land Bridge and a land connection of Ireland, Britain, France, and Denmark. The height of the Ice Age lowered the sea levels to expose the Persian Gulf to a dry wide flat valley with a river running down the centre. The Strait of Hormuz was dry and kept Indian Ocean seawater out of that expansive plain. at some point the land outside of the Strait of Hormuz was a shallow continental shelf. Later, there was a deep trench like the one off the coast of Ice Age Florida. As sea levels rose from 12,000 to 11,000 BCE, the narrow continental shelf water rose first, and then flooded across the Land Bridge of Hormuz (Bandar Abbas to Oman). As the water flowed and eroded the higher land of the land bridge, the flow increased. At this point, it can be speculated that a major Richter 9 quake in a zone of common major earthquakes could have gone down..and this woud've fractured the Hormuz Land Bridge opening the floodgates that filled the entire Persian-Arabian broad tectonic valley near This huge flood with an added tsunami would send water beyond the current northern shoreline of the Persian Gulf into the Mesopotamian valley.
It has already been established by many that people had been living there since 70,000 BCE...and when considering all of what has been noted, its more than reasonable to conclude that this flood inundated their "world" as they perceived it, with the Semites, Elamites, and Sumerians telling/retelling their story long afterward. Perhaps each story was of a different family. ..which, of coursem would lead to what we have with Gilgamesh and what followed later in the account of Noah's Flood. Moreover, as Ice Glaciers would've enabled such to occur in the area Noah lived, much of humanity may've been located in certain areas rather than all over the world---and when the same occurred to them, its more than reasonable to assume they moved/migrated to other areas remembering the same kind of experiences that all happened simultaneously when the earth was undergoing change...
Alternatives to the Ice Age raised Sea Levels, Persian Gulf Flood with or without a huge quake. Possibly, it may've been the case that there was a huge Tsunami as big as the Indian Ocean Quake of December 2004 that may have worsened the situation. Its established that there was a major End Ice Age flood that rising waters of the Mediterranean overflowed the land bridge of the Bosporus separating land on which Istanbul stands on the west in Europe, and Oskudar on the East in Asia Minor.
Sea Water poured into what was (during the Height of the Ice Age) a fresh water lake (Black Lake). This rapidly poured seawater into the fresh water lake, killing fish, flooding the littoral of the entire shoreline of former Black Lake. Now it is the much larger and deeper Black Sea. Hundreds of thousands of people living along the old fresh water shoreline were drowned and another hundred thousand were forced to migrate rapidly to higher ground. Some might have even headed toward the Caucasus Mountains (say, Mount Ararat).
The other major flood was in Washington State at the end of the Ice Age. As the continental glacier began to melt, it formed huge lakes held back by a glacial Ice Dam. The Glacial Lake Missoula was held back by the Clark Fork and Columbia River Ice Dams. The Dam broke several times producing huge floods that covered most of Washington State and carved the gorge of the Columbia to the Pacific Ocean. Native Americans lived there at that time and they have legends of those floods in addition to geology proof of flood basalts across central Washington. Native Americans have several different stories about the Glacial Dam (Bridge of the Gods) and the devastating flood that destroyed many villages and animal herds. It was an American equivalent and probably occurred near the same time as the Mythical Noah's Flood.
Whether others agree or disagree, I'd love to hear what others feel on the matter...and whether or not you think reconcilliation can ever occur. Shalom
I was writing due to how I have often seen alot of battles that've gone down over the years, be it between Young Earth Creationists or Old Earth Creationists or Secular Evolutionists on how whether or not a flood ever occurred on the Earth---and for those that do, the battle often seems to go for whether it was a global or a local one.
Although I am currently an Old Earth Creationist, I grew up within YEC circles and felt that many things they noted seemed to make sense...and thus, I have never really been 100% sold out to either one spectrum at all points. Alot of times, I feel as if I'm a bit of a oddity whenever the battles rage on and I'm simply trying to find truth and accuracy..one side saying that the Flood HAD to be Global /all encompassing in scope while another sides says that it could only be local. Though I know you've said you're a Theistic Evolutionists, Your thoughts seem to be more so in line with aspects of Old Earth Creationism
But in wrestling on the subject, it occurred to me that perhaps both sides often polarize over issues that are not really necessary. When I consider the Flood, I think it can be both LOCAL and Global. For myself, discussing "localized floods" is to be taken as meaning what Noah experienced LOCALLY was apart of what may've been occurring GLOBALLY if the mechnanisms that God used (i.e. glaciers melting, Polar Ice Caps, Ice Age, Tsunami, etc) happen to have set off chain reactions that affected other parts of the planet simultaneously and resulted in local floods of immense size/scope happening GLOBALLY.
IMHO, there's more than enough scientific evidence showing that at some point---whether that be Post-Ice Age or Pre---there were many floods of IMMENSE magnitude around the world in many areas....and that is the context of "Global Flood", which many scientists have been more than open to when seeing just how much damage could have occurred due to that. If wishing to discuss the issue of water covering the entire areas where civilization occurred, films have been made on the issue....be it with "2012" and the Mega-Tsumamis occurring due to what played out with Earth Crust Displacement Theory or the film "The Day After Tommorrow" where Global Warming led to immesne problems with weather conditions and the sea level rose immensely to flood many areas. One could even consider the film "Water World" with Kevin Costner...where the setting of the film is the distant future and the background is one very much connected with the concept of Global Warming since the polar ice caps have completely melted, and the sea level has risen many thousands of feet, covering virtually all the land...
It also seems, IMHO, that global flooding can be seen in the clear flood legends from other parts of the world....as many of them apart from the Biblical text describe flooding happening rapidly rather than gradually..and as it concerns what I've said in seeing Flooding in a Global aspect within the form of multiple localized floods--either all together or back -to -back (ripple effect) and prolonging devestation in certain areas while making it possible to reach other places as they catch the tail end of things. ...with each localized flood doing extensive damage to the world's of others while those others may've never realized that what they experienced perhaps had its connections in something else that may've happened locally.
Surely, if Tsumami Waves from an underwater Earthquake (with earthquakes happening ALL The time/in differing levels) could damage Japan Severely...and yet still be felt in California or other parts of the U.S Coast..and it has been the case that Super WAVES OF EVEN More immense magnitude have occurred to do far more damage/wash inland very far, there's no logical reason (IMHO ) to assume that it could not have happened before. Science shows that such things could have been going on for a long time, if not in more severe ways depending on where the planet was at ecologically at the moment. ...and as many have even said that Super-Quakes have only occurred on certain conditions and at specific faults with devestating consequences, its hard for me to throw that out.
Something else I must also consider is how today we see a surprising number of cities existing deep underwater. Off of the western coast of India a city has been discovered recently, which is one hundred and twenty feet under water in the Gulf of Cambay. It measures five miles long by two miles wide. Things such as human remains, tools, pottery etc. have been recovered and confirm that this was indeed a very old human civilization. Yet another underwater city has been discovered off of the southeastern coast of India near Mahabalipuram at about twenty five feet deep. Ancient artifacts and carvings and perhaps even some kind of religious temple has been discovered. It has been estimated to be five thousand years old. Another one can be found off of the Coast of Japan, as it concerns a massive temple hundreds of ft. deep. One must wonder how all of those cities that used to be where others lived came to be so deep under the waters...
Some say that all of the stories of Global Floods around the world are simply a matter of a Flood described in one culture being located in the area of the Middle East or Africa somehow ..and then later, a survivor came from that area left and somehow reached the Native Americans to share his story, as they have their own version of when a Great Flood covered the entire earth.
I disagree with that, though, as it'd be more logical that perhaps the same thing was occurring all around the world...
With Native American stories of the Flood, they've been very fascinating to see how they described what occurred---and for reference, one can go online/investigate the following under their respective titles:
No one expects others to check out every resource...as its there just in case anyone would like to do their own investigation. From where I stand, how can one explain the worldwide dominance of stories of this kind of catastrophe, if they did not have a common basis? A common origin lends to the Biblical model, according to which the flood story would be spread from Asia Minor by the few survivors of the flood as they repopulated the earth....and a more practical orgin would be that the Flood occurred world-wide in a series of massive flooding in many areas while the Biblical text itself was focused on discussing the Flood occurring within their own area that had (in their mind) a Global effect on many things, whereas other cultures would have been experiencing similar things as well.
And on the issue of others experiencing floods all over, as was noted in the film "The Day After Tommorrow", it seems really logical to believe there may have been many floods. Seriously, the volume of ice is so large that if the Greenland ice sheet melted, it would cause sea levels to rise six meters (20 ft) all around the world. Additionally, f the Antarctic ice sheet melted, sea levels would rise up to 65 meters (210 ft). And if the many Ice Ages that the planet has gone through has seen such, what would be ANY different with other cultures/parts of human civilization near those areas where the caps were close to seeing the same....and then afterward either staying where they were/passing their stories down the ages or simply spreading out to other areas and remembering what happened before?
Something to consider, as it concerns the Biblical Flood account, is that note is that if examining the topography of the Persian Gulf, Iran, Arabia, the Strait of Hormuz and the proximal Indian Ocean with the continental shelf, one will noticed that the shallow seas cover the Persian Gulf, the Strait of Hormuz (Bandar Abbas in Iran to the northern tip of Oman.). That specific narrow strait was likely a land bridge during the Ice Age when sea levels were low enough to expose the Bering Strait Land Bridge and a land connection of Ireland, Britain, France, and Denmark. The height of the Ice Age lowered the sea levels to expose the Persian Gulf to a dry wide flat valley with a river running down the centre. The Strait of Hormuz was dry and kept Indian Ocean seawater out of that expansive plain. at some point the land outside of the Strait of Hormuz was a shallow continental shelf. Later, there was a deep trench like the one off the coast of Ice Age Florida. As sea levels rose from 12,000 to 11,000 BCE, the narrow continental shelf water rose first, and then flooded across the Land Bridge of Hormuz (Bandar Abbas to Oman). As the water flowed and eroded the higher land of the land bridge, the flow increased. At this point, it can be speculated that a major Richter 9 quake in a zone of common major earthquakes could have gone down..and this woud've fractured the Hormuz Land Bridge opening the floodgates that filled the entire Persian-Arabian broad tectonic valley near This huge flood with an added tsunami would send water beyond the current northern shoreline of the Persian Gulf into the Mesopotamian valley.
It has already been established by many that people had been living there since 70,000 BCE...and when considering all of what has been noted, its more than reasonable to conclude that this flood inundated their "world" as they perceived it, with the Semites, Elamites, and Sumerians telling/retelling their story long afterward. Perhaps each story was of a different family. ..which, of coursem would lead to what we have with Gilgamesh and what followed later in the account of Noah's Flood. Moreover, as Ice Glaciers would've enabled such to occur in the area Noah lived, much of humanity may've been located in certain areas rather than all over the world---and when the same occurred to them, its more than reasonable to assume they moved/migrated to other areas remembering the same kind of experiences that all happened simultaneously when the earth was undergoing change...
Alternatives to the Ice Age raised Sea Levels, Persian Gulf Flood with or without a huge quake. Possibly, it may've been the case that there was a huge Tsunami as big as the Indian Ocean Quake of December 2004 that may have worsened the situation. Its established that there was a major End Ice Age flood that rising waters of the Mediterranean overflowed the land bridge of the Bosporus separating land on which Istanbul stands on the west in Europe, and Oskudar on the East in Asia Minor.
Sea Water poured into what was (during the Height of the Ice Age) a fresh water lake (Black Lake). This rapidly poured seawater into the fresh water lake, killing fish, flooding the littoral of the entire shoreline of former Black Lake. Now it is the much larger and deeper Black Sea. Hundreds of thousands of people living along the old fresh water shoreline were drowned and another hundred thousand were forced to migrate rapidly to higher ground. Some might have even headed toward the Caucasus Mountains (say, Mount Ararat).
The other major flood was in Washington State at the end of the Ice Age. As the continental glacier began to melt, it formed huge lakes held back by a glacial Ice Dam. The Glacial Lake Missoula was held back by the Clark Fork and Columbia River Ice Dams. The Dam broke several times producing huge floods that covered most of Washington State and carved the gorge of the Columbia to the Pacific Ocean. Native Americans lived there at that time and they have legends of those floods in addition to geology proof of flood basalts across central Washington. Native Americans have several different stories about the Glacial Dam (Bridge of the Gods) and the devastating flood that destroyed many villages and animal herds. It was an American equivalent and probably occurred near the same time as the Mythical Noah's Flood.
Whether others agree or disagree, I'd love to hear what others feel on the matter...and whether or not you think reconcilliation can ever occur. Shalom
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