Orthodoxy & Comics: Is Paganism and the Old Ways being brought back via Comics?

[Gxg (G²)]

I think I liked the Superman original movie the best out of the super hero movies, since I'm not really into those. My husband actually loved the "Dark Knight." He thinks that is more the true character of Batman. I saw the first Batman with Keaton when it came out in theaters ages ago. It was pretty good.

The first Batman seems to be the best presentation of who Batman was, I think..

I completely DISOWN/DESPISE the version of Batman made in the 3rd and 4th films that had the Riddler/Two-Face and Poison-Ivy and Mr.Freeze. Horrible and WAY too colorful...but the Dark Knight version was a bit on the edge. Dark indeed...but enjoyable

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Personally, I always thought Batman should have been a little more Rorschach-ish. I mean, talk about having duality issues...

"None of you seem to understand, I'm not locked in here with you...you're locked in here with ME!"

Pretty much all people trying to be Super-hero are going to have issues it seems...

But no one ever considers the other side that not everyone with special abilities really cares about using them for the public good. If you could fight exceptionally well, like Batman, what would it look like if you chose to live normal and only use your powers on special occassions? And for the many who had parents killed when they were younger and yet lived normal lives, what does Batman look like to them? To them, he's crazy.....and needs to move on with his life rather than say his circumstances were justification for dressing up in a costume and trying to save the day.

 

[Eastern Drifter]

I think the voice for Batman and the fighting style of the man in Nolan's version wasn't really what I was digging in comparision with Burton's version...although I will say that it does seem that Nolan's version of Gotham seemed to be a bit more real in regards to crime and how it looks. I also liked his version of Joker, which was perhaps the best one to date.

Keaton's Batman had more going for him in general..and I felt I could somehow relate to the man more..

Heath Ledger certainly gave the best performance. He did a purely modernized version of Joker, whereas Nicholas did a more Silver Age (some Bronze Age influence with The Killing Joke serving as inspiration).

 

[Eastern Drifter]

I think I liked the Superman original movie the best out of the super hero movies, since I'm not really into those. My husband actually loved the "Dark Knight." He thinks that is more the true character of Batman. I saw the first Batman with Keaton when it came out in theaters ages ago. It was pretty good.

Superman: The Movie was great, but I think Superman II was an improvement, what with Zod, Non, and Ursa. Gotta love 'em.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Heath Ledger certainly gave the best performance. He did a purely modernized version of Joker, whereas Nicholas did a more Silver Age (some Bronze Age influence with The Killing Joke serving as inspiration).

I actually felt that Ledger did more of the "Killing Joke" style than Nicholas...as Ledger was given Batman: The Killing Joke and Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth to read.

His Joker still carried the intensity, scariness and humor of the comics.....

 

[Eastern Drifter]

I actually felt that Ledger did more of the "Killing Joke" style than Nicholas...as Ledger was given Batman: The Killing Joke and Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth to read.

His Joker still carried the intensity, scariness and humor of the comics.....

Burton also read The Killing Joke, believe it or not, during pre-production of Batman. As for the finished result, I kind of agree. I can see some of it in Nicholson, but Ledger's Joker had an almost rhyme to his chaos (to drive everyone in Gotham insane and evil, much like it was Joker's goal in TKJ to drive Gordon insane by kidnapping Babs and showing him photos of her tortured body); whereas Nicholson was about random acts of dark fun.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Burton also read The Killing Joke, believe it or not, during pre-production of Batman. As for the finished result, I kind of agree. I can see some of it in Nicholson, but Ledger's Joker had an almost rhyme to his chaos (to drive everyone in Gotham insane and evil, much like it was Joker's goal in TKJ to drive Gordon insane by kidnapping Babs and showing him photos of her tortured body); whereas Nicholson was about random acts of dark fun.

Joker's actions in Burton's film did seem more to be about self (even though he was good in terms of intimidation)--but it wasn't about aND driving others mad...whereas Ledger's joker was about showing the way things didn't make sense. I actually respected that Joker more so than others since he often had excellent points, if considering how many things are simply arbitrary...

Jeffrey Dahmer--- a murderous cannibal-- stated once, "If a person doesn't think there is a God to be accountable to, then…what is the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges? That's how I thought…I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just came from the slime." There are numerous others besides him that have echoed the same thing.

And when watching the film "The Dark Knight ", one will see the same concepts. In the movie entitled "The Dark Knight" , Batman faced off against the Joker's view of the world...and increasingly found himself pushing the line on many of the boundaries he had. For the Joker espouses a nihilist philosophy concerning the arbitrariness of the code of morality in civilized society, saying it is but a thin veneer/construct intended for our consolation...and as he believed, under pressure “civilized people will eat each other.” As The Joker puts it, “madness is like gravity; all it takes is a little push.” If you recall the comic take he gave on a Nietzschean sentiment, he summed up his beliefs in saying “Whatever does not kill you makes you stranger.”


The scene where he discussed how many things were simply "part of the plan"/made no sense when showing double-standards was perhaps the most disturbing...and yet relevant.

The Joker: Do I really look like a guy with a plan? You know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it. You know, I just... do things. The mob has plans, the cops have plans, Gordon's got plans. You know, they're schemers. Schemers trying to control their little worlds. I'm not a schemer. I try to show the schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are. So, when I say... Ah, come here.

When I say that you and your girlfriend was nothing personal, you know that I'm telling the truth. It's the schemers that put you where you are. You were a schemer, you had plans, and look where that got you. I just did what I do best. I took your little plan and I turned it on itself. Look what I did to this city with a few drums of gas and a couple of bullets. Hmmm? You know... You know what I've noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying! If, tomorrow, I tell the press that, like, a gang banger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all "part of the plan." But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds! Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos. I'm an agent of chaos. Oh, and you know the thing about chaos? It's fair!

Where Batman and the officials try to keep everything orderly and going according to plan, life – the Joker – reminds them that there is another side to life. We are not in control, even when it seems that we are. Life is just aligning with our shoulds for a short while.

Many people felt Ledger's Joker did the best job of showing how Joker, crazy as he was, was also one of the most brilliant characters in existence when it came to his own motivations and why he often was able to bring out the conflict in others and make them address things many simply didn't want to address. He made it clear that he and Batman were often on the same levels and yet Batman denied it..

In what Joker discussed in the film "The Dark Knight" , it all came down to the ideology that the best way to live in the world is without rules...and for a good example/examination of such, one can go online to Youtube and find the video entitled Secular Humanist vs the Nihilist


Some felt the film was way too dark...but in a world where there are no absolutes defined by the Lord, Joker made the most sense. More discussed her, here and here.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Burton also read The Killing Joke, believe it or not, during pre-production of Batman. As for the finished result, I kind of agree. I can see some of it in Nicholson, but Ledger's Joker had an almost rhyme to his chaos (to drive everyone in Gotham insane and evil, much like it was Joker's goal in TKJ to drive Gordon insane by kidnapping Babs and showing him photos of her tortured body); whereas Nicholson was about random acts of dark fun.

Some have said that the Joker portrayed in the Dark Knight was demonic and that it was not proper for other believers to watch it.

As it concerns Joker from Nicholson and Joker from Burton, it seems that both combined together reflect the one from the Animated series..which many have felt was the best portrayal overall:

Joker's greatest joke ever - Joker's best moments from Justice League Wild Cards
Jokers Funniest Moments Part 1
Jokers Funniest Moment Part 2​

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I liked Burton's Batman INFINITELY better than the new stuff. Jack Nicholson was so much better than Ledger, God rest his soul. The Joker is tough to portray because his personality has been a bit re-tooled in the golden, silver, and bronze age DC apparitions of the guy. The level of evil and intensity that Ledger put into it was over the top IMHO. The Burton Batman flicks were outrageous enough and yet kids could watch them without nightmares and being so uneasy.

I hated Bale's portrayal of Batman. The way he changes his voice sounds so stupid. He talks like a wannabe knucklebuster for a loan shark. I hate his armor and his vehicles don't look "batish" but rather like something some hillbillies would cook up to drive in the desert while suckin' Coors.

I thought the origin tale with Liam Neeson stunk. I almost just turned off the movie. I really disliked both the women who played Rachel Dawes.

I just didn't feel these movies. They were far too cynical, off-track, poorly-acted, and just no fun. I know I'm in an UTTER minority in saying this; 9 out of 10 people I know adored both the new movies.

Personally I thought every Batman movie in the 90's that followed Keaton's first film was horrifically awful. Val Kilmer was a trainwreck and Clooney was painful to watch.

I'm at the point I'd rather have Adam West in the leotards!

I agree with Easy G and gurneyhallack both to some extent. Both interpretations of Batman have their strengths and weaknesses.

Tim Burton's two Batman films had a lot of gothic style and art deco going for it. When I see Burton's Gotham, I think "That's Batman's territory!" When I see Christopher Nolan's Gotham (which was shot mostly in Chicago), I don't see anything but a normal city. There's little sense that his version of Gotham City is a decidedly crime-ridden, run-down, first-stop-before-you-get-to-hell dystopia. Sure, there's crime, but Gotham City is supposed to be the worst of the worst.

As far as characterization, you have to give props to Bale for giving us a cocky playboy persona for the public Bruce Wayne. That's something that was missing from Burton's films (it wouldn't have belonged there anyway). I'd say that Michael Keaton plays the better Batman, hands down, while Christian Bale plays the better Bruce Wayne, hands down again. Christian Bale in the suit is hard to take seriously sometimes, mostly because of his voice and posture. Batman crouching like a gargoyle works in the comics, but Bale proved that it doesn't really look so cool on film (he rather reminds me of a squatting dog).

When Keaton is in the suit, his body language, calm voice, and overall presence make him more intimidating. You get the impression the guy has some psychological scars that you don't want to take part in.

Backstory: Nolan's version is better developed. This is inarguable. In Batman Begins we see numerous flash-backs to Bruce's childhood, where we learn why exactly he fears bats, what life was like for him prior to becoming a vigilante. You see a lost man find his way.

Burton chose to leave both Bruce Wayne and Batman relative mysteries. We hardly learn anything about him, rather than he's consumed by a sense of justice and revenge. He himself doesn't understand exactly what drives him to take such a strange road (he admits such to Vicki Vale in the Batcave). You want to see more into his psyche, you want to learn more about him, but we're only given the information necessary for the story. This was an interesting presentation, and I personally prefer it to Nolan's.

 

[inconsequential]

I haven't read many of the comics and haven't watched a lot of the animated series so just from the movies and games, my favorite joker was from the Arkham Asylum video game. I found myself darkly amused by many of his "jokes" and he seemed to have a genuine sense of humor.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Heaven forbid ANYONE likes the Val Kilmer or Geroge Clooney version of Batman. As said before, that one is DISOWNED from the Batman memory

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Val Kilmer was so so bad that it genuinely made me nervous! I can only watch it like a trainwreck with pity for whoever was involved in the casting! And shoot, Jim Carrey annoyed me so bad that I got crazy nervous there

Heaven forbid ANYONE likes the Val Kilmer or Geroge Clooney version of Batman. As said before, that one is DISOWNED from the Batman memory

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I liked Burton's Batman INFINITELY better than the new stuff. Jack Nicholson was so much better than Ledger, God rest his soul. The Joker is tough to portray because his personality has been a bit re-tooled in the golden, silver, and bronze age DC apparitions of the guy. The level of evil and intensity that Ledger put into it was over the top IMHO. The Burton Batman flicks were outrageous enough and yet kids could watch them without nightmares and being so uneasy.

I actually had a couple of nightmares about the Joker played by Ledger. Tripped me out and made me realize how disturbing that one was in specific.....although I also had some level of being freaked out by the Joker in Burton's version.

I hated Bale's portrayal of Batman. The way he changes his voice sounds so stupid.

Pretty much...most hilarious scene is when he's talking to Lucius Fox (Morgan Freeman) with his deep voice and the man already has revealed his identity to the man. I'm thinking "Do you talk deep whenever the suit is on to EVERYONE you're close to--even if they know you're Bruce/don't talk like that???!"

The voice wasn't the best..

I hate his armor and his vehicles don't look "batish" but rather like something some hillbillies would cook up to drive in the desert while suckin' Coors.

Thank you !!!!!! Was wondering if I was the only one who felt the Batmobile in that one looked like it was just a big tank and there was nothing "distinct" about it except that it had weapons..

I thought the origin tale with Liam Neeson stunk.

It was interesting, to say the least. I was upset that they decided to take the immortal character of Ra's al Ghul (who was Arabic in the comics) and make him European....and leave out the Lazarus Pit dynamic in light of all the things he/the League of Shadows was about.

I almost just turned off the movie. I really disliked both the women who played Rachel Dawes.

The second one seemed REALLY old, didn't she? I must admit, when she died, I actually laughed in light of how it played out..

I just didn't feel these movies. They were far too cynical, off-track, poorly-acted, and just no fun. I know I'm in an UTTER minority in saying this; 9 out of 10 people I know adored both the new movies.

Some of the acting in certain places was lacking..

Personally I thought every Batman movie in the 90's that followed Keaton's first film was horrifically awful. Val Kilmer was a trainwreck and Clooney was painful to watch.

May those versions never be considered by others who were not born in those times to be valid...as I was in elementary school/middle school when those came out..and even as a kid, I hated them.

I'm at the point I'd rather have Adam West in the leotards!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Val Kilmer was so so bad that it genuinely made me nervous! I can only watch it like a trainwreck with pity for whoever was involved in the casting! And shoot, Jim Carrey annoyed me so bad that I got crazy nervous there

Jim Carrey actually freaked me out, with the stalker dynamic/sucking people's minds......but yes, Val Kilmer bothered me. I was a bit insulted as a Batman fan that they went from the brilliance that was Keaton and switched to who they did in the 3rd/4th Batman film.

The only one I remotely liked in the film series who was consistent was Alfred--and after that, perhaps Mr.Freeze as a villian.

But they really ticked me off when they took what occurred with Catwoman in Batman Returns and made that Catwoman film with Halle Berry. Really ticked me off when seeing how they destroyed a good thing..

 

[Eastern Drifter]

I just didn't feel these movies. They were far too cynical, off-track, poorly-acted, and just no fun. I know I'm in an UTTER minority in saying this; 9 out of 10 people I know adored both the new movies.

That's OK. I'm in the minority for preferring Superman over Batman.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I'm with ya actually. I prefer Superman. I grew up as a kid in love with the character 100%. And when I was only 3 years old and we way Superman in the theater, I absolutely was in seventh heaven. Christopher Reeves brought that character to life. I miss Gene Hackman's Luthor so much.

"MISS TESSMACCKKKKKER!"

That's OK. I'm in the minority for preferring Superman over Batman.

 

[Eastern Drifter]

I'm with ya actually. I prefer Superman. I grew up as a kid in love with the character 100%. And when I was only 3 years old and we way Superman in the theater, I absolutely was in seventh heaven. Christopher Reeves brought that character to life. I miss Gene Hackman's Luthor so much.

"MISS TESSMACCKKKKKER!"

Heheh. Hackman as Luthor was a character, all right.

 

[The Dark Knight]

I liked Burton's Batman INFINITELY better than the new stuff. Jack Nicholson was so much better than Ledger, God rest his soul. The Joker is tough to portray because his personality has been a bit re-tooled in the golden, silver, and bronze age DC apparitions of the guy. The level of evil and intensity that Ledger put into it was over the top IMHO. The Burton Batman flicks were outrageous enough and yet kids could watch them without nightmares and being so uneasy.

I hated Bale's portrayal of Batman. The way he changes his voice sounds so stupid. He talks like a wannabe knucklebuster for a loan shark. I hate his armor and his vehicles don't look "batish" but rather like something some hillbillies would cook up to drive in the desert while suckin' Coors.

I thought the origin tale with Liam Neeson stunk. I almost just turned off the movie. I really disliked both the women who played Rachel Dawes.

I just didn't feel these movies. They were far too cynical, off-track, poorly-acted, and just no fun. I know I'm in an UTTER minority in saying this; 9 out of 10 people I know adored both the new movies.

Personally I thought every Batman movie in the 90's that followed Keaton's first film was horrifically awful. Val Kilmer was a trainwreck and Clooney was painful to watch.

I'm at the point I'd rather have Adam West in the leotards!

OK now...looks like somebody needs to brush up on his Frank Miller Batman in order to understand the new material.

 

[ArmyMatt]

OK now...looks like somebody needs to brush up on his Frank Miller Batman in order to understand the new material.

true that. you gotta read Year One to get the Nolan Batman, much like you gotta read Alan Moore's Batman to get the 1989 movie.

 

[Eastern Drifter]

OK now...looks like somebody needs to brush up on his Frank Miller Batman in order to understand the new material.

Frank Miller's influence over the overall characterization of Batman began and ended with The Dark Knight Returns.

His present series, All Star Batman & Robin, is all but irrelevant in the grand scheme of modern comics, notable only for Lee's art and the meme "I'm the GD Batman".

That said, aside from the Tumbler being tank-like similar to TDKR, Nolan's Batman has less in common with that book than Burton's films, which drew heavy influence from it.

Nolan relied more on very early Detective Comics and the Batman: Year One origin story.