WooHoo Submission

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JaneFW

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Yes, McScribe...it is. She said a book caused a murder. You seem to be having the same misread as her, I didnt say one single word about their teachings, so why do you add something about that?

But more important, what in the world does it mean, you understand the intent behind it?

Me too, its malicious and wrong and inexcusable. If this is what you call finding a middle ground I want nothing whatsoever to do with it
Actually the writer of the article AND the DA made a link between the murder and the book:

The PVC tube may seem like a strange punishment tool, but for those familiar with the teachings of Christian fundamentalists and authors Michael and Debi Pearl, it is nothing new.

“There was some evidence that indicates they were familiar with the Pearls’ publications,” Ramsey said of the Schatzes. Police interviews with the other children revealed they, too, had been on the receiving end of the “rod.”

I think you should read the article. The parents used exactly the method of "punishment" suggested in the book, which was written by the Pearls. Sure, the parents could have killed the girl with anything at all - but they used the "tool" which is given in the book, and they followed other methods given in the book, and the wickedness of the methods given in the book certainly contributed to the death of that child.

God will decide whether the Pearls should be accountable, but I wouldn't like to be in their shoes.
 
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chaz345

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Actually the writer of the article AND the DA made a link between the murder and the book:



I think you should read the article. The parents used exactly the method of "punishment" suggested in the book, which was written by the Pearls. Sure, the parents could have killed the girl with anything at all - but they used the "tool" which is given in the book, and they followed other methods given in the book, and the wickedness of the methods given in the book certainly contributed to the death of that child.

God will decide whether the Pearls should be accountable, but I wouldn't like to be in their shoes.

That all may be true, but it's also largely irrelevant as no one here that supports submission advocates anything at all like what the Pearls teach.

See, we've gone from a discussion about what we here believe about submission to talking about a very extreme and fringe version of submission as if its the norm teaching on the subject.
 
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JaneFW

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That all may be true, but it's also largely irrelevant as no one here that supports submission advocates anything at all like what the Pearls teach.

See, we've gone from a discussion about what we here believe about submission to talking about a very extreme and fringe version of submission as if its the norm teaching on the subject.
But it exists. You may say it's extreme and fringe, but it still comes from that teaching.

This is off topic, but you know, whenever some extremist act comes up that is connected to Christians - whether it's Catholic priests abusing small children, a Christian man shooting or bombing abortion clinics/doctors, the recent shooting of children in Norway by a Christian man - the outcry from Christains is THAT/THOSE PERSON/PEOPLE ARE NOT REAL CHRISTIANS!! THEY'RE EXTREMISTS. NOT ME. NOT US. NOT HERE. And non-Christians are saying "so where are the "real" Christians if none of these people who say they are Christians are not "real" Christians? How are we to know?" And they are right. They are cynical about Christians. So much for "they will know we are Christians by our love" - it's just not coming across to the rest of the world because the ugliness overrides it all.
 
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chaz345

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But it exists. You may say it's extreme and fringe, but it still comes from that teaching.

This is off topic, but you know, whenever some extremist act comes up that is connected to Christians - whether it's Catholic priests abusing small children, a Christian man shooting or bombing abortion clinics/doctors, the recent shooting of children in Norway by a Christian man - the outcry from Christains is THAT/THOSE PERSON/PEOPLE ARE NOT REAL CHRISTIANS!! THEY'RE EXTREMISTS. NOT ME. NOT US. NOT HERE. And non-Christians are saying "so where are the "real" Christians if none of these people who say they are Christians are not "real" Christians? How are we to know?" And they are right. They are cynical about Christians. So much for "they will know we are Christians by our love" - it's just not coming across to the rest of the world because the ugliness overrides it all.

The problem though is that when EVERY time submission is discussed, the extreme becomes the subject, it really seems as if anyone who believes in any form of submission is being painted with that same brush. Why the need on this subject, and a few others to talk only about the extreme and not about what the people you are actually talking to actually believe? Happens with submission/headship every time.

Happens with sex too where a statement that sex should be frequent gets turned into "sex on tap" every time he wants no matter what he's done to her. Yes there are people who believe that. And believing that is wrong. But why not talk about what the people here talking actually believe?

Happens with abuse too. Someone will say "not everything that's called abuse actually is" and all of sudden we're talking about that meaning that abuse is being supported/defended. Again, there are people who support defend abuse. But why not talk about what's actually been said instead of the most extreme example that can be found?
 
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Conservativation

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Okay, it's a diversion from the main topic. It is also a concern, and to my mind had been dealt with: no one accepts the idea of abusive submission. We can move on from it.

Respectfully, it seems its only ok to be dogged about something you are dogged about? Please consider what Im saying.
 
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Avniel

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Eph 5:25-26 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her NIV

Matt 20:28
just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." NIV

John 10:11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. NIV

John
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I know all those scriptures to well even though I stay away from the NIV.

However your statement was "A wife's submission is to the self sacrificing love of her husband, not a domestic overlord." I see no where that the scriptures tells the wife to submit to the love of her husband. Instead I see the terms Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

I do agree that husbands are to love there wives as Christ loved the church. Also that the bible places both man and woman at a level of service to the other spouse however a man isn't to love his wife's submission and a wife isn't to submit to her husband's love. That's not biblical.
 
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Respectfully, it seems its only ok to be dogged about something you are dogged about? Please consider what Im saying.

If you look at the other discussions happening around this subject abuse is not the main concern, at least not as I see it. As I understand it the conversations are about fairness and are difficult enough in discussing that.

Psalm was wrong to insinuate that your concerns about libel imply that you have an abusive personality. I have agreed with that. I'm not sure as to what you want here. Do you WANT to argue about this abuse issue?
 
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Chaplain David

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Nothing is accomplished by arguing in threads except to stir up negative emotions. Discussing the topic at hand deferentially, supporting one's views with proof if necessary, and not going into personal criticism mode works wonders however. It is easy to misconstrue the words or meaning of another in a thread because only a narrow amount of communication occurs without body language, voice inflection, and the limited amount of words used when compared to a real-life conversation. It is very easy to not see the full meaning of the written words of another and from that limited view, react to something that may or may not even be meant by the person being responded to.
 
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Johnnz

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I know all those scriptures to well even though I stay away from the NIV.

However your statement was "A wife's submission is to the self sacrificing love of her husband, not a domestic overlord." I see no where that the scriptures tells the wife to submit to the love of her husband. Instead I see the terms Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

I do agree that husbands are to love there wives as Christ loved the church. Also that the bible places both man and woman at a level of service to the other spouse however a man isn't to love his wife's submission and a wife isn't to submit to her husband's love. That's not biblical.

My line of thinking goes this way. Paul is talking about relationships within the Christian community, which begins with 5:15. He mentions mutual submission and then goes on to develop that theme. Wives submit to their husband who is to love them as Christ did by laying down his life i.e. sacrificially. That teaching was in direct contrast to Roman society, where the oldest male was absolute lord of the household, including all other people living there, even another man's wife. We cannot assume a modern nuclear family back onto those texts. Thus Paul was undercutting the primary male taking precedence over other's wives. Also, Roman law did not recognise marriage between slaves; they were mere property (as were wives too). Slave families could be broken up by sale. Remembering that Paul's letter would be read aloud to all present in the house church at Ephesus, all there would have recognised he was countering prevailing cultural norms, namely:

Each (including a slave's) marriage was between a couple, and not to be overridden by the master male.
In a society where marriage was held in low regard by many, Paul taught of a mutual love and respect, as if they were one (love their wives as their own bodies) , echoing the 'one flesh' of Genesis. Paul was the only writer in the ancient world to write about a husband loving his wife, which he takes to the level of Christ's sacrificial love.
A wife's primary submission was to her husband not the head male, although she would be otherwise expected to conform to his requirements either as his child, or as his servant.

John
NZ
 
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JaneFW

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The problem though is that when EVERY time submission is discussed, the extreme becomes the subject, it really seems as if anyone who believes in any form of submission is being painted with that same brush. Why the need on this subject, and a few others to talk only about the extreme and not about what the people you are actually talking to actually believe? Happens with submission/headship every time.

Happens with sex too where a statement that sex should be frequent gets turned into "sex on tap" every time he wants no matter what he's done to her. Yes there are people who believe that. And believing that is wrong. But why not talk about what the people here talking actually believe?

Happens with abuse too. Someone will say "not everything that's called abuse actually is" and all of sudden we're talking about that meaning that abuse is being supported/defended. Again, there are people who support defend abuse. But why not talk about what's actually been said instead of the most extreme example that can be found?
Extremes exist. It can be used as a way to abuse, and it is. There are firsthand recipients of the extreme right here, who have suffered from the teaching. I don't that this is limited to a few people on an internet site. In that case, perhaps submission should be cast aside.

It's just a thought.
 
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chaz345

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Extremes exist. It can be used as a way to abuse, and it is. There are firsthand recipients of the extreme right here, who have suffered from the teaching. I don't that this is limited to a few people on an internet site. In that case, perhaps submission should be cast aside.

It's just a thought.

Yes extremes exist. But that's not the point. The point is, for whatever reason, we can't have a discussion about certain topics without the extreme not just being mentioned, but taking over the entire conversation. That and it's also completely wrong for,as seems to have been done in this case, the extreme being used to paint the non-extreme. That is, anyone who advocates any sort of submission is painted as advocating or at the very least not objecting to the extreme.
 
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JanniGirl

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I don't think that mentioning a few extremes is a bad thing. Generally, the subject has been pretty well in the middle. Most "pro" submission folks belaboring the trump card idea that the husband has the final say-so in decision making. Others consider this a wrong interpretation of scripture and disagree. That's pretty much what I've seen on the several threads addressing this issue.

I'll come down on the side of mutual submission as described in the Bible. No trump card -- everyone is equal and personally responsible for themselves and equally responsible to their spouse. God is the tie-breaker rather than having a fallable human be the tie breaker. -- That's just me though. If others want to organize their lives differently, that's a-okay by me.
 
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Psalm63

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My line of thinking goes this way. Paul is talking about relationships within the Christian community, which begins with 5:15. He mentions mutual submission and then goes on to develop that theme. Wives submit to their husband who is to love them as Christ did by laying down his life i.e. sacrificially. That teaching was in direct contrast to Roman society, where the oldest male was absolute lord of the household, including all other people living there, even another man's wife. We cannot assume a modern nuclear family back onto those texts. Thus Paul was undercutting the primary male taking precedence over other's wives. Also, Roman law did not recognise marriage between slaves; they were mere property (as were wives too). Slave families could be broken up by sale. Remembering that Paul's letter would be read aloud to all present in the house church at Ephesus, all there would have recognised he was countering prevailing cultural norms, namely:

Each (including a slave's) marriage was between a couple, and not to be overridden by the master male.
In a society where marriage was held in low regard by many, Paul taught of a mutual love and respect, as if they were one (love their wives as their own bodies) , echoing the 'one flesh' of Genesis. Paul was the only writer in the ancient world to write about a husband loving his wife, which he takes to the level of Christ's sacrificial love.
A wife's primary submission was to her husband not the head male, although she would be otherwise expected to conform to his requirements either as his child, or as his servant.

John
NZ

:thumbsup:


Peter Kruse has a great series on "The Household Code" of Ephesians. (old but timeless :))
 
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Psalm63

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Anything in the Bible can be used as an excuse to abuse. Doesn't invalidate the scriptures. However what is frustrating is that attempts at exploring the larger context are cast aside in favor of what makes people comfortable.

I don't understand what you mean by "attempts at exploring the larger context"? I am assuming you do not mean yours or my own personal "context" but are you speaking of Biblical context, historical context?
 
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