Not Smart Enough

[Michie]

I read this rather interesting article on religion in the university, but was mostly struck by the comments, which were overwhelmingly hostile to religious belief. I know that the “New Atheism” is quite the publishing phenomenon these days, and that lots of people who think they’re smart also think that orthodox (and even unorthodox) believers are quite dense. What’s more, they’re clearly not afraid to say so.

This raises a couple of “practical” questions that they ought to consider.

First, if religion is as powerfully influential as they think, how is it that they can get away with saying such mean things about it? How did we come to live in a regime where it’s possible to speak freely about allegedly reigning “orthodoxies”? Did religious authorities voluntarily loosen their grip, or were they “misled” by smart atheists? (John Locke, for example, was a thinker who was quite possibly an atheist–I realize there is much scholarly dispute about this–who availed himself of religious arguments to argue for toleration, albeit not for atheists.)

Second, if we believers are as dumb as the New Atheists think we are, then how on earth are we going to govern ourselves? If we’re too stupid to live by the light of mere reason, then (to borrow a phrase) what is to be done with us? Are we to be disenfranchised and governed by a rational elite? Thomas Hobbes said something quite apposite here: “[T]here are very few so foolish that had not rather govern themselves than be governed by others: nor when the wise, in their own conceit, contend by force with them who distrust their own wisdom, do they always, or often, or almost at any time, get the victory.”

Continued- http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/25/not-smart-enough/

 

[Christ's_Warrior]

Hi Michie,

I posted something similar on TAW, I'm astounded at the hate these people have for us, it is quite extraordinary. I also find it difficult to comprehend that many atheists label themselves as humanist, but have great disdain for over 2 billion HUMANS.

If you stroll into an atheist blog, you will be quite shocked at the absolute hate and bitterness that flows from the minds of these people.

 

[ped2000]

This "new atheisim" is just one more sign the end is near. They are smug, arrogant and shameful children that mock our Lord like a spoiled brat. We'll see who's laughing in the end though when they are burning. Let them wallow in their inferior "reason" and "logic" we know the truth and we see their hatred and intolerance for us. Those who laugh last, laugh the best!

 

[StThomasMore]

Hi Michie,

I posted something similar on TAW, I'm astounded at the hate these people have for us, it is quite extraordinary. I also find it difficult to comprehend that many atheists label themselves as humanist, but have great disdain for over 2 billion HUMANS.

If you stroll into an atheist blog, you will be quite shocked at the absolute hate and bitterness that flows from the minds of these people.

I agree, the attitude of the EO really get on my nerves at times. With such hate they have for the Catholic Church I think the Church was much more right to label them as Greek Schismatic in its earlier proclamations.

 

[rjc34]

Hi Michie,

I posted something similar on TAW, I'm astounded at the hate these people have for us, it is quite extraordinary. I also find it difficult to comprehend that many atheists label themselves as humanist, but have great disdain for over 2 billion HUMANS.

If you stroll into an atheist blog, you will be quite shocked at the absolute hate and bitterness that flows from the minds of these people.

We don't hate the religious, we disdain the institution of the church. The hyper-elite in the Vatican having billion of tax-free money, and good leverage in world politics? Not a good thing. The systematic cover-up of hundreds of child abuse scandals? The pope should be charged with conspiracy and put in jail.

 

[sea oat]

I agree, the attitude of the EO really get on my nerves at times. With such hate they have for the Catholic Church I think the Church was much more right to label them as Greek Schismatic in its earlier proclamations.

Hmmm.... I'm pretty sure Christ's_Warrior was referring to hatred coming from atheists bloggers. Not hatred coming from people in TAW.

 

[StThomasMore]

Hmmm.... I'm pretty sure Christ's_Warrior was referring to hatred coming from atheists bloggers. Not hatred coming from people in TAW.

musta been a subconscious parallel I saw, since I see many posts about the animosity the TAW forum has towards the Church at times in their posts.

Today's atheism is very different from the older forms ala Voltaire. Its much more drifted towards the ideal of scientism.

 

[JoabAnias]

We don't hate the religious, we disdain the institution of the church. The hyper-elite in the Vatican having billion of tax-free money, and good leverage in world politics? Not a good thing. The systematic cover-up of hundreds of child abuse scandals? The pope should be charged with conspiracy and put in jail.

If you understood the Church, you would know its made up of, and IS the religious so you do "disdain" the religious by hating the Church.

Who is the head of secular humanism?

 

[rjc34]

If you understood the Church, you would know its made up of, and IS the religious so you do "disdain" the religious by hating the Church.

Who is the head of secular humanism?

No, the religious are the people who believe in God and worship, etc. The church is an organization. I have no problem with the people, I do have a problem with the church trying to wield power.

And secular humanism is a worldview, not a religion.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

No, the religious are the people who believe in God and worship, etc. The church is an organization. I have no problem with the people, I do have a problem with the church trying to wield power.

And secular humanism is a worldview, not a religion.

So you're saying that the Pope, Bishops and priest don't believe in God?

Sure, there are bad priest and even Bishops, but they're the minority.

Most, have a deep rich faith in God, and do a good job of living out the Gospel.


Don't be influenced by the hyped media reports about the sex abuse scandal.

Less than 2% of the priest have been involved in sexual misconduct, and less than 1% actually molested children. The majority of the 2% were involved with young teens, or adult women.

By no means does it make it right, but its not as bleak as you seem to believe.

Jim

 

[JoabAnias]

No, the religious are the people who believe in God and worship, etc. The church is an organization. I have no problem with the people, I do have a problem with the church trying to wield power.

And secular humanism is a worldview, not a religion.

The people who believe in God ARE the Church. That is OUR understanding.

You do not have the same opinion of "Church" as we religious.

You could say the Church is a building too, and neither would that be the full understanding of what it is.

You know you aren't supposed to debate here right? I don't tell you that to dissuade dialog but to spare you violation from the staff.

Are you angry at God for being who He is?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Back to the OP.


I work in an engineering environment, were just about everyone has a college degree.

Over the course of my 30 years, I can say that the OP Article reflects the latest trend of engineers, where all are under 40 years of age, and are atheist. They treat believers, including yours truly, as if we're dunderheads.

From my experience, the number of believers among the educated engineering types, is very small. But in past days, even the older atheist didn't treat believers with the disrespect as they do today.


Jim

 

[Christ's_Warrior]

Hi RJC,

You have many misconceptions about the Church, if you really want to learn, then simply ask us and we will be happy to assist.

 

[JoabAnias]

Back to the OP.


I work in an engineering environment, were just about everyone has a college degree.

Over the course of my 30 years, I can say that the OP Article reflects the latest trend of engineers, where all are under 40 years of age, and are atheist. They treat believers, including yours truly, as if we're dunderheads.

From my experience, the number of believers among the educated engineering types, is very small. But in past days, even the older atheist didn't treat believers with the disrespect as they do today.


Jim

I can vouch for that. I've had the same experience as you in the engineering fields Jim, to a point that I rarely bring up the faith outside of my faith community unless I can get a sense that who I am speaking with is on the same page, which has happened from time to time, yet mostly, the faith will invariably become a point of contention which really is a shame. Its the same with politics too though. . I am fortunate to be able to work with a few good men of faith who I can count on to be moral and ethical.

 

[ChristoEtEcclesiae]

The only real problem secular humanists and militant atheists have with the Church is that it provides a questioning voice for moral and ethical concerns. They would have the Church silenced so that they can do anything they want without someone planting the seed of doubt in their minds.

And we see proof of this all the time. It is a quite popular--albeit untrue--notion in modern academia that the Catholic Church is a corrupt and subversive organization interested in perpetuating human ignorance. No one wants to talk about Catholics unless the topic is "priest abuse scandal" or any of the fundamentally flawed fantasies about whatever happened in the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades.

 

[rjc34]

So you're saying that the Pope, Bishops and priest don't believe in God?

Sure, there are bad priest and even Bishops, but they're the minority.

Most, have a deep rich faith in God, and do a good job of living out the Gospel.


Don't be influenced by the hyped media reports about the sex abuse scandal.

Less than 2% of the priest have been involved in sexual misconduct, and less than 1% actually molested children. The majority of the 2% were involved with young teens, or adult women.

By no means does it make it right, but its not as bleak as you seem to believe.

Jim

Well, two German lawyers have just submitted a 16,500-word document to the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court at the Hague, charging the Pope with crimes against humanity.

And no, it's not the 'media hype' I'm going with for the sex abuse scandals, it's the fact (and yes, documents were leaked that show this to be fact) that there was a systematic cover up of all the scandals in the church.

 

[rjc34]

The people who believe in God ARE the Church. That is OUR understanding.

You do not have the same opinion of "Church" as we religious.

You could say the Church is a building too, and neither would that be the full understanding of what it is.

I realize that now, thanks for pointing it out. I guess my disgust goes very specifically towards the Vatican.

You know you aren't supposed to debate here right? I don't tell you that to dissuade dialog but to spare you violation from the staff.

I feel like I should delete my points and go, just to make sure I don't get a warning. I stumbled into this thread while checking to see if a new member posting absurd stuff in the science section was a Poe.

I felt the OP was almost treading on slander with what he was saying about us, and felt it was appropriate to chime in and offer a small defense for our side of the argument.

Are you angry at God for being who He is?

And we get to the nice loaded question. Are you one of those people that think that atheists are just 'mad at god'? No, just at those who insist I believe what they believe without evidence or reason. Just as you don't believe in the thousands of other gods that humans believe/believed in, I don't believe Yahweh is anything more than a remnant of Canaanite and Hebrew polytheism.

(Somebody tell me if that falls under the 'no blasphemy' rule, because if it does I'll delete it.)

 

[JoabAnias]

I realize that now, thanks for pointing it out. I guess my disgust goes very specifically towards the Vatican.

I understand and once thought the same thing. I came to realize differently.

I feel like I should delete my points and go, just to make sure I don't get a warning. I stumbled into this thread while checking to see if a new member posting absurd stuff in the science section was a Poe.

All I can tell you is that I haven't complained myself.

I felt the OP was almost treading on slander with what he was saying about us, and felt it was appropriate to chime in and offer a small defense for our side of the argument.

I consider myself this sort of humanist at times:
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Humanism
Christian humanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pope Reiterates Call for a 'New Humanism' - International ...
CATHOLIC CULTURE FOR TRUE HUMANISM

etc etc.

And we get to the nice loaded question. Are you one of those people that think that atheists are just 'mad at god'? No, just at those who insist I believe what they believe without evidence or reason. Just as you don't believe in the thousands of other gods that humans believe/believed in, I don't believe Yahweh is anything more than a remnant of Canaanite and Hebrew polytheism.

No, I only asked because you mentioned the Church wielding power and I wondered what you thought of God being omnipotent and if that might cause you to resent God for that even though we believe God allows everyone their free will to choose.

The Church very much supports reason.
Fides et Ratio (faith and reason) - John Paul II - Encyclical Letter (September 15, 1998)
Catholic Faith and Reason - Home
The Harmony of Faith and Reason (This Rock: April 2003)

Otherwise the Church is not out to create a theocracy and teaches on matters of faith and morals. It holds no way to force its ethical teaching on the world. Its opinion however, is respected by some of the most astute in the world. That doesn't mean it is followed very often - unfortunately.

 

[rjc34]

I understand and once thought the same thing. I came to realize differently.

All I can tell you is that I haven't complained myself.

I consider myself this sort of humanist at times

Take all the superstition and myth out of Christianity and you basically have humanism! They're very compatible, hence why a lot of ex-christians such as myself hold humanism as a world-view.

Otherwise the Church is not out to create a theocracy and teaches on matters of faith and morals. It holds no way to force its ethical teaching on the world. Its opinion however, is respected by some of the most astute in the world. That doesn't mean it is followed very often - unfortunately.

The issue I have with church morals and ethics is that they claim unchanging absolutes... and even throughout history this is demonstrably false. Some morals of the catholic church I find to be abhorrent, and many more found in the bible, but I believe when a lens of humanism is applied to religious teachings and dogma (as I believe almost all but the most fundamentalists do)
one can come out with a very reasonable world-view.

 

[SolomonVII]

Atheism is becoming anti-theism. That is what the new atheism is all about.