U.K. plan would allow same-sex unions in church

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Phinehas2

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David Brider,
I don't know about you, but the God I worship is big enough to take same-sex couples being allowed to get married.
The God I worship whose testimony is the Bible, detests same sex relations as error. I am thinking of Lev 18 and 1 C 6-7 and Romans 1.

That begs the question, could you give some evidence for your god’s views?
The problem with the Sodom account in Gen 19, is there is no word that can be translated rape. The men did not seem to know they were angels, they referred to the visitors as men, wanted to know carnally, the men. If one assumes its rape, the men raping women was not called wicked, the men raping men was.
It's discrimination against same-sex couples if they're not allowed to marry.
Yes I agree, but they cant do it in Christian churches where it is recognised as sin.

It's not discrimination against Christians if same-sex couples are allowed to marry, though.
It is if its asking Christians to allow such sin in their churches.

What's evil about allowing two people of the same sex to marry each other? Seriously?
Following my references, I concur with and second the responses of He’sMyLorsAlways and soldier71
 
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Psudopod

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Yes I agree, but they cant do it in Christian churches where it is recognised as sin.

Not every church recognises it is sin though. What's wrong with allowing those churches that want to marry same sex couples to do so? No one as far as I can see is forcing those that do consider it sin to hold ceremonies.
 
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Phinehas2

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poeticlurker,
Do you know anything at all about rape? Rapists don't call what they do rape. They call it sex. In a rapist's sick, twisted mind, the victim wants to be dominated sexually, though in reality they certainly don't.
The account doesn’t mention rape so your point is irrelevant.

Force? Are they breaking into people's houses and forcing men to marry men, or women to marry women? Are they enforcing privileges upon those who marry the same sex? Because straight married couples get a lot of privileges most people would never think of.
Is the government forcing LGBT groups to have ex-gay ministries minister to them? Christians can’t have same sex partnerships celebrated, the government cant start telling people what they can and cant believe.

So... allowing people to exercise their rights infringes upon the exercise to practice one's faith. How have gay rights trumped the rights of religion? Tell me how, coherently and with sources.
Unfortunately for you, homosexuality is a biological fact and is not inherently harmful- in fact a theory is that it keeps the population from growing out of control. Humans being humans, we have to reproduce to win the "war in the bedroom" (?!) and override our natural instincts. I have a hard time believing that God would create someone with a specific sin already ingrained into them. Original sin, whatever, but one specific sin, when the original Bible says so little about homosexuality?
The instincts are anatomically dysfunctional, and many scientific studies show the relations are harmful as well. Unfortunately for you not everyone agrees with you and nor will they.
Keep in mind that there are exactly 6 verses in the Bible that have anything to do with homosexuality, and all of them can be interpreted in different ways, thanks to the original Bible not being written in English.
Keep in mind that there are many which affirm and reference the faithful union God created man and woman to be in. Also bear in mind that there are no passages that support or countenance the sin in any way. So your argument there is baseless.

The same was said about black civil rights and women's rights and their positions in the church, ignoring the many denominations that have historically supported both black and female pastors.
Sadly like support for same sex partnerships, support for the slave trade crept in the church during the 18th century.
The classic "but I have gay friends!" excuse, with a slight twist that reveals you are not very tolerant at all.
With the testimony that I am tolerant of peoples having views which I reject but that many LGBT lobbies are not.
The legislation allows same-sex unions in church, not forces them. Do learn the difference.
There is a law that defends freedom of religion and a law that enforces services not to be refused on the grounds of sexual orientation.
 
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Phinehas2

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The UK coalition government is talking about the Big society. The mainstream Christian churches are not only proportionally significant in charity and voluntary work but significant as a whole. Nearly 1/3 of all voluntary and charity work in the UK is faith based.
The government better watch out it doesnt start dictating this stuff to the churches or they will find there less being done than before.
 
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Psudopod

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Christians can’t have same sex partnerships celebrated, the government cant start telling people what they can and cant believe.

Where are you getting this from? The goverment isn't telling people what they can and cannot believe. They are saying that those churchs that believe same sex relationships are not sinful and want to hold ceremonies for them can.

So... allowing people to exercise their rights infringes upon the exercise to practice one's faith. How have gay rights trumped the rights of religion? Tell me how, coherently and with sources.

They haven't.

The instincts are anatomically dysfunctional, and many scientific studies show the relations are harmful as well. Unfortunately for you not everyone agrees with you and nor will they.

Where are these studies?

There is a law that defends freedom of religion and a law that enforces services not to be refused on the grounds of sexual orientation.

That is for businesses, not churches.
 
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David Brider

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][/COLOR]The God I worship whose testimony is the Bible, detests same sex relations as error. I am thinking of Lev 18 and 1 C 6-7 and Romans 1.


As none of the verses you mention there refer to same-sex marriage specifically as "error", they're not particularly relevant to the discussion.

That begs the question, could you give some evidence for your god’s views?

What, that God's big enough to deal with same-sex couples getting married? Yeah. He made the entire universe. He's big enough.

The problem with the Sodom account in Gen 19, is there is no word that can be translated rape.

A rampaging group of men tried to force themselves sexually onto a couple of angels. Forcing oneself sexually onto another person or people is rape. The account doesn't have to use the word "rape" for it to be obvious that that's what it's talking about.

Yes I agree, but they cant do it in Christian churches where it is recognised as sin.

If the law changes, those Christian churches who are happy to marry same-sex couples will be allowed to do so. You will still be entitled to your opinion that for them to do so is sin. Who do you perceive as being discriminated against in such a situation?

David.
 
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This is, in my opinion, brilliant news! The government should never have banned civil unions in houses of worship in the first place. Surely it's the job of the church, and not the government, to decide who can and cannot get married in their institution?

Anyway, a step in the right direction for the Lib Dem minister in charge of this.
 
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Phinehas2

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Psudopod,
Where are you getting this from? The goverment isn't telling people what they can and cannot believe. They are saying that those churchs that believe same sex relationships are not sinful and want to hold ceremonies for them can.
As I explained this is not the concern, the concern is gay groups trying to use the equality law against religions that can not tolerate this sin.

Where are these studies?
Well you claimed they aren’t harmful so lets first see the studies that support what you claimed. And when I have dismissed them as faulty would you really be convinced with the studies I present?

Just recently we had a drugs advisor to the government appointed and within a couple of weeks dismissed because they found out he had done studies that were negative to homosexuality. I hope the government has calculated it has enough gays to do everything once it has disabled all Christians.
That is for businesses, not churches.
Sorry we don’t believe you, marriages and civil partnerships would be deemed services.
 
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jayem

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What is going on in the U.S is very similar right now. 2 states allow unions and 3 others for some kind of Gay legal something.

It's more than that. 5 states (MA, IA, CT, VT, NH) and D.C. allow same sex marriages. 10 other states (CA, CO, HI, IL, ME, NJ, NV, OR, WA, WI) allow some kind of civil union, domestic partnership, or partner benefits. A few others recognize same-sex marriages from other states, even though they can't yet be performed in-state. So 30% of the states now give some type of legal recognition to same-sex unions. The trend is clear.
 
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Psudopod

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Psudopod,
Where are you getting this from? The goverment isn't telling people what they can and cannot believe. They are saying that those churchs that believe same sex relationships are not sinful and want to hold ceremonies for them can.
As I explained this is not the concern, the concern is gay groups trying to use the equality law against religions that can not tolerate this sin.

Evidence for this? Evidence that even if someone does try to push it, they would have any chance of success?

Well you claimed they aren’t harmful so lets first see the studies that support what you claimed.

No I didn't. I don't believe they are, because I see nothing inherently harmful in homosexual relationships that isn't a risk in hetrosexual ones, but I didn't claim to have any studies.

And when I have dismissed them as faulty would you really be convinced with the studies I present?

Depends how you dismissed them. If you showed the studies were incorrect in their conclusions, or badly carried out, I would respect that. If you simply dismissed them as "I don't agree with them so therefore they're wrong" I'd have no respect for that because you are simply dismissing the issue ideologically.

Just recently we had a drugs advisor to the government appointed and within a couple of weeks dismissed because they found out he had done studies that were negative to homosexuality. I hope the government has calculated it has enough gays to do everything once it has disabled all Christians.

See here. I agree with Evan Harris' take on the matter - he shouldn't have been fired for holding opinions on something unrelated to his post, but he wasn't someone who should have been given that position in the first place.

BBC - Mark Easton's UK: Why was Dr Raabe sacked?
 
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Phinehas2

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David Brider,
As none of the verses you mention there refer to same-sex marriage specifically as "error", they're not particularly relevant to the discussion.
As they condemn same sex relations same sex relations aren’t marriage in God’s eyes. As there is no Biblical countenance for same sex relations your point is baseless.
What, that God's big enough to deal with same-sex couples getting married? Yeah. He made the entire universe. He's big enough.
So no evidence apart from your own personal claims. My God made the universe. Genesis 1.1 and 2.4 for starters, my God who detests same sex relations Lev 18 & 20, 1 Cor 6-7 and Romans 1


A rampaging group of men tried to force themselves sexually onto a couple of angels. Forcing oneself sexually onto another person or people is rape. The account doesn't have to use the word "rape" for it to be obvious that that's what it's talking about.
There is no word that can be translated as rape, nor rampaging. It you insist it is rape then the men raping men was wicked but the men raping the virgin daughters wasn’t. No, sorry I don’t accept that as a valid interpretation.

If the law changes, those Christian churches who are happy to marry same-sex couples will be allowed to do so. You will still be entitled to your opinion that for them to do so is sin. Who do you perceive as being discriminated against in such a situation?
If they allow what God detests how can you say they are Christian?
 
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Phinehas2

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Psudopod,
No I didn't. I don't believe they are, because I see nothing inherently harmful in homosexual relationships that isn't a risk in hetrosexual ones, but I didn't claim to have any studies.
Ok studies show they are harmful despite what you think.
See here. I agree with Evan Harris' take on the matter - he shouldn't have been fired for holding opinions on something unrelated to his post, but he wasn't someone who should have been given that position in the first place.
Well yes he was if his job is not affected by his opinions on something else. Evan Harris lost his seat to a Christian at the last election, thank God. This is the guy responsible for some of the most dysfunctional and ungodly laws passed in recent years. I mean two women on a birth certificate just to please lesbians? He has lost the plot
 
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Phinehas2

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Supreme,
This is, in my opinion, brilliant news! The government should never have banned civil unions in houses of worship in the first place. Surely it's the job of the church, and not the government, to decide who can and cannot get married in their institution?
Exactly, it is the job of the church, if its allowing sin celebrated its probably not the Christian church. The RC, Anglican, baptist, Evangelical alliance all hold that same sex relations are error, who are these cults who are going to have them?


Its the job of the Christian church to decide what the Christian churches will have, not the job of the government to decide a few cults are Christian.
 
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Supreme

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Supreme,
Exactly, it is the job of the church, if its allowing sin celebrated its probably not the Christian church. The RC, Anglican, baptist, Evangelical alliance all hold that same sex relations are error, who are these cults who are going to have them? [/COLOR][/FONT]

The Quakers certainly will, and they're certainly no cult. They're very much a legitimate Christian demonination.
 
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David Brider

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As they condemn same sex relations same sex relations aren’t marriage in God’s eyes.


Except that they don't "condemn same sex relations".

So no evidence apart from your own personal claims.

So you think that God is small and limited enough to be obsessed with whether two people of the same sex are allowed to get married? What evidence do you have for that? Apart from your own personal claims.

There is no word that can be translated as rape, nor rampaging.


Forcing yourself sexually on another person is rape. Whether a specific word for "rape" is used in the text, attempted gang rape is clearly what's being described by the passage in question.

It you insist it is rape then the men raping men was wicked but the men raping the virgin daughters wasn’t.

Actually, whether you call it rape or not, Lot offering his daughters to the men is pretty inexplicable under the circumstances.

No, sorry I don’t accept that as a valid interpretation.

Fine. I don't accept yours as a valid interpretation. We may just have to agree to disagree, in that case.

If they allow what God detests how can you say they are Christian?

They allow what you believe God detests (but then you've yet to show conclusively how God detests the notion of two people of the same sex getting married). Just because of that, how can you say they're not Christian?

David.
 
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David Brider

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Well yes he was if his job is not affected by his opinions on something else.


Harris' point, though, is that it's Raabe's opinions about drugs that disqualify him from his place on the ACMD:

"When it comes to drugs Dr Raabe has no expertise, no research background and no relevant specialist experience and worse still has an ideological position on drug policy that he has declared his intention to force through the Council. That's why he wasn't fit to be an expert adviser, not because of his wrong and offensive views on homosexuality."

David.
 
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Phinehas2

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David Brider,

Except that they don't "condemn same sex relations".
Except they do by what they say despite your claims to the contrary. And until you can come up with any cited verses that say to the contrary your argument is baseless. They are recognised as doing so by the RC, Anglican, Baptist and Evangelical Alliance. If you are saying the overwhelming majority of Christians are wrong and you are right then sadly I think you are deluded.

So you think that God is small and limited enough to be obsessed with whether two people of the same sex are allowed to get married? What evidence do you have for that? Apart from your own personal claims.
As I said no I don’t, my God created the heavens and the earth. The question was to you.

Actually, whether you call it rape or not, Lot offering his daughters to the men is pretty inexplicable under the circumstances.
I don’t call it rape and the warning is against men wanting sex with men.
Fine. I don't accept yours as a valid interpretation. We may just have to agree to disagree, in that case.
Yes but my view is in line with the word of God, the Biblical references given which the majority mainstream Christian churches hold, your have merely given your own strange ideas.
 
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PolarQuest

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Well look no further than Genesis Chapter 1. Lets see what God says. The Lord says,” And the Lord God said let us make man in image and likeness. So God Created Man in his own image. And God said, Let him have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds in the air, over all the cattle and over all the creeping things that creep on the earth. So God created man in his own likeness and his own image. It tells us God created both Male and Female. Then God”Blessed” them saying be fruitful and multiply and subdue the earth . Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and over ever living thing that moves on the earth.

We see specifically here God has blessed a man and a woman that they may multiply on the Earth. So to say God is worried about population is unbiblical.

When Noah brought the animals on the ark that God had gathered for him they were in in pairs of male and female. If any of these animals were the same sex they could not procreate themselves, thus the animal would go extinct unless God created that animal again. As one here that says in the Bible. Man shall not lay with a man like He does a woman for this is an abomination against the Lord.

One’s pleasure does not make it right in the eyes of God. I could have the pleasure of sleeping with 2 women. That would be a pleasure for me. And even though it would it would be a sin against God what is evil about sleeping with 2 woman at once? My pleasure could say it is what I like to do. But the Lord said but I say only one man and one woman. I could not say. Hey Lord I’m sorry but you did not tell me enough that this is wrong. Tell me more times and I will stop. If you don’t tell me enough then it must not be true.

If one reads a sign on the outside of the doctors office that says.... You’re not allowed to use cell phones in the waiting room must use phones outside the door. Would a person say. Look I m using my cell phone in the waiting room because even though they had a sign outside telling me not to they did not have a sign in here to tell me not to. So that gives me the right to use my cell phone in here. The Governments may allow this. That is of the world and of the heart of mankind. But this is not what God says is a righteous law.

The Lord has allowed them to go against His will. They chose by free will to not listen to God or to make up excuses or reasons why they think God supports this. Also Jesus did not heal any openly gay man. Can one read Lord I am openly gay please heal my wounds? Approve me Lord. I know you accept same sex couples. You really think Jesus would say sure? Sure God accepts same sex couples. There is nothing wrong with that. But we know by reading that would not be the Jesus we know. The Lord does not compromise against Himself what is sin to the Lord. In other words the Lord would not say. This is a good thing to do even though I also consider this to be a sin also. God is for one and against the other in law. If God accepted both ways He would not be that much of a powerful God . He would be opinionated like the rest of us. :amen:
 
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