question regarding illegitimate children, priesthood and annulment

BAFRIEND

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I always was happy.

Do you need help on how to cite a source or something?

Its rather easy if your right there and have already looked it up.

I would like you to understand the SSPX interpretation of Catholic law, as you percieve it, is way off the mark though.

Are you getting this yet?

The Code of Canon Law states:
"1137. Children conceived or born of a valid or putative marriage are legitimate."

you canon citation is irrellent- as is your remark about the sspx interpretation

go back and re-read the OP where i commented and stated

now that really caught my attention and i tried to research to discover if this is a qualification for the rcc also but cannot find an answer- certainly in recent history it had to of been if it is part of the traditional sector

and

i just want an answer to the question if a person was conceived outside of marriage if the priesthood is out

the fact is that the Church does view children of an annulment illegitimate under certain circumstances and there is nada you can do about it
 
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JoabAnias

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you canon citation is irrellent- as is your remark about the sspx interpretation

go back and re-read the OP where i commented and stated



and



the fact is that the Church does view children of an annulment illegitimate under certain circumstances and there is nada you can do about it

Again, "Illegitimate" applies as a term only so far as one may be entitled to an inheritance or not. If a child were born of a mother and father then they are legitimately a child of those parents. Illegitimate can be used as an ugly and pejorative word and that is never the sense the Church would use it.

I fail to see where anything has been proven contrary to the canon law of the Church which states:

"1137. Children conceived or born of a valid or putative marriage are legitimate."

You even quoted the CE which said essentially the same thing in the 1917 edition which states:

"children conceived before a sentence of invalidity is rendered have the standing of legitimate children."

This means that even if a marriage is found to be invalid after the marriage, the children are still and are always valid.

And as was also said numerous times that deserves repeating one more time, which doesn't seem to be acknowledged for some reason:

This term illegitimate is a legal term only, and has absolutely no significance to a child's religious or moral standing in the Church in either practice or reality.

A child either has a legal right to an inheritance or not. Paternal testing supports the laws of both man and the Church.

No one has a right to the priesthood. The priesthood is a calling and God will call who he wishes regardless of the state of their parents marriage. The child of a divorce is not barred from the priesthood any more than the victim of a divorce is prohibited from communion.

Evidently, if you understood the SSPX correctly, only the SSPX would deny someone their calling to the priesthood irrationally based on the state of their parents marriage. I'd shudder to think what they would require of someone who is being beaten by their spouse or who is abandoned by them.

The Church never has taught that any child is less than precious to God and the Church no matter how he/she was conceived.

Forget the SSPX web site bro and sleep on it. Its wrong.
 
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BAFRIEND

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Again, "Illegitimate" applies as a term only so far as one may be entitled to an inheritance or not. If a child were born of a mother and father then they are legitimately a child of those parents. Illegitimate can be used as an ugly and pejorative word and that is never the sense the Church would use it.

that does not seem to be the view here as the Church used it:

Various canons were also formed concerning different details of illegitimacy, until finally a general prohibition against all spurious children being admitted to orders was enacted, on the ground that the stain of birth would be a stain on the sacred ministry.

here is the difinition from merriam webster:

not recognized as lawful offspring; specifically : born of parents not married to each other
link Illegitimate - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
 
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JoabAnias

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That does not seem to be the view here as the Church used it:

OK but it would help to show where that quote comes from and in its context. Picking and choosing anonymously quoted text to support a particular line of reasoning is inconclusive at best.

Are we talking about the ancient past or the current law here?

The current law says something quite different. Again:

"1137. Children conceived or born of a valid or putative marriage are legitimate."

As you seem to get this notion from the SSPX and seem to be arguing it on their behalf then I am going to go ahead and assume that quote is changed by the current law as quoted above.

here is the definition from merriam webster:

Here is another more relevant definition from the Catholic Dictionary:

ILLEGITIMACY

According to Church law, the birth of children born less than six months after the date of a marriage, or more than ten months after the dissolution of conjugal life. Unless otherwise specified, children legitimized by a subsequent marriage are, as far as canonical effects are concerned, held equal to legitimate children. Unless there is proof to the contrary, the husband of a woman is considered the father of her child. (referring to paternity/inheritance).

I am not disputing either definition in regard to paternal inheritance, only in regard to a child's religious or moral standing in the Church in either practice or reality which seems to be what you are claiming the SSPX are doing which I consider archaic.

That, and the fact that such a term may be construed as harmful to an innocent child. We would never tell a child they were illegitimate because the Church has never taught that any child is less than precious to God and the Church no matter how he/she was conceived. Nor do I think it would be something any unwed parents would not be aware of.

If the Church at one time did differentiate regarding admission to the priesthood it would seem according to current canon law that she does no longer.

Perhaps this would be a good question for a diocesan vocations director, a canon lawyer or spiritual director but either way, the current state of things seems evident enough to say that the SSPX are holding to a draconian interpretation in disregard of currently binding canon law.
 
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AMDG

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here is the difinition from merriam webster:

Don't think you can use the merriam webster dictionary definition because that is secular and there is great confusion between the secular "anullment" and the Church "Decree of Nullity" with the Church "Decree of Nullity" being popularly called an "anullment". It makes people think that their children are illigetimate if a Decree of Nullity is granted, and that is not so.

Besides that the term "illigetimate" is not even used on the birth certificates any longer so there wouldn't even be a way to know one way or the other even if it were true and it's not.

Don't be taken in by false statements by schismetic groups.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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BAFRIEND

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Don't think you can use the merriam webster dictionary definition because that is secular and there is great confusion between the secular "anullment" and the Church "Decree of Nullity" with the Church "Decree of Nullity" being popularly called an "anullment". It makes people think that their children are illigetimate if a Decree of Nullity is granted, and that is not so.

Besides that the term "illigetimate" is not even used on the birth certificates any longer so there wouldn't even be a way to know one way or the other even if it were true and it's not.

Don't be taken in by false statements by schismetic groups.

none of this makes any difference- i am pointing out by using the definition that the term 'illegitimate' regardless if the term is on birth certificates or not it does not change the fact that the term refers to children born outside of marriage (sacramental or otherwise)

and it is not just a term used for inheretence purposes either- all you posting in this thread seem to know what the term is and who it is applied to and under what circumstances

my simple question was about ordination in the RCC and illegitimate male children and has nothing to do with the relevence of the term or the sspx
 
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AMDG

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none of this makes any difference

No, IMO it does--from a practical aspect. How on earth can anyone forbid something that isn't known? The answer seems obvious. They can't. So your idea that the priesthood is forbidden to illegitimate children must be false (that is even if you refuse to accept the most excellent arguments and proofs noting that canon law does not exclude children born out-of-wedlock from the priesthood.) End of story (as far as I'm concerned.)
 
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here is a quick question i am finding it hard to find an answer too

i was on the website for an sspx seminary and it stated that candidates could only be the product of a valid marriage, in otherwords they could not be illegitimate

now that really caught my attention and i tried to research to discover if this is a qualification for the rcc also but cannot find an answer- certainly in recent history it had to of been if it is part of the traditional sector

this of course would mean that if parents got an annulment- then the children who were illegitimatized would be unable to become catholic priests

last year we debated and discovered that the catholic church does indeed view the children of annulments to be illegitimate if both parents knowingly entered into the sacrament knowing it was deceptive

i just want an answer to the question if a person was conceived outside of marriage if the priesthood is out


Once I heared my bishop, his eminence Cardinal Juan Sandoval Iñiguez, who said to the seminarians of the Seminary of Guadalajara, the largest in the world now a days, that the origin of the ones who are called by the Lord is not an important thing, that the priest should show his joy as a servent of the Lord as a new human in the Lord. That in the past of the Lord´s human family, in his ascendants, there were also many sinners, to show that God can get good things from bad things.

No one should be ashamed by his parent's sins, because we are new in the Lord and his mercy is larger than his justice. That is encouraging.
 
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JoabAnias

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BTW, there are parts of Canon Law, that need updating.

Good article. :thumbsup:

The author doesn't seem to be suggesting that though, that I could see:

"briefly, that we have fallen out of the habit of observing Canon 277 in the Church, but the law (and theology behind the law) remains unchanged." ...

"I believe this is a “Josiah moment” for the Church. In the Old Testament, we are told that the good King Josiah discovered the law of Moses, after it had been long forgotten, and had it proclaimed again to the people of Israel. In the West today, we have forgotten the Church’s discipline about one of the essential obligations that ordination to orders carries with it. We are now witnessing this forgotten law being discovered again. The question now is, “will we follow the law?”"...

"I know that returning to this teaching will be met with resistance by some (“Wait, this isn’t what I signed up for!”) but my hope is that permanent deacons (and the rest of us) can acknowledge the wisdom of the Church’s teaching and discipline. How we deal with the situation of permanent deacons who were ordained without full knowledge of the requirements bound up with their office remains to be seen,"

Church Law says Permanent Deacons (and all clerics) are obliged to abstain from sex, notes Canonist Edward Peters {updated} | CatholicVote.org

That makes me wonder what the vows of a Deacon are?

This part of the article is really uplifting:

"After all, the obligation to abstain from sexual activity elevates the dignity of orders, and increases the sign value represented by observing continence for the sake of God’s Kingdom. This is something that all unmarried priests (and transitional deacons) are already bound to observe. Including permanent deacons and married priests among those who are bound to observe continence matches the reality that all these men described above share fundamentally in the same sacred reality: holy orders. There are not “two ways” of being a cleric in the Roman Catholic Church, instead, one sacrament unites them all, and carries the same obligations for all who are ordained as clerics.

Following the law removes the ambiguity and double-standard that we currently witness in the Church, an ambiguity that those who argue for a married priesthood capitalize on whenever they try to make the case that permanent deacons and married priests being able to have sexual relations means that all priests and deacons should. Rather, the solution is for all priests and deacons to observe the same perfect continence, as has been the long-standing tradition in Canon Law and the Western Catholic tradition.

The obligation of deacons to observe perfect continence, furthermore, provides an opportunity the wives of these married deacons to make a praiseworthy sacrifice on behalf of the Church. As Father Boyle says:

If the future deacon were to become bound by the obligation to observe perfect and perpetual continence, this would involve the renunciation by the wife of her marital rights. It would be unjust for her to be deprived of these rights by her husband’s ordination, but she could willingly renounce these rights for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.
"


God bless him. :)
 
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Andy Hardy

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here is a quick question i am finding it hard to find an answer too

i was on the website for an sspx seminary and it stated that candidates could only be the product of a valid marriage, in otherwords they could not be illegitimate

now that really caught my attention and i tried to research to discover if this is a qualification for the rcc also but cannot find an answer- certainly in recent history it had to of been if it is part of the traditional sector

this of course would mean that if parents got an annulment- then the children who were illegitimatized would be unable to become catholic priests

last year we debated and discovered that the catholic church does indeed view the children of annulments to be illegitimate if both parents knowingly entered into the sacrament knowing it was deceptive

i just want an answer to the question if a person was conceived outside of marriage if the priesthood is out

The silly moral inconsistencies caused by the strict scrupulousness of religious fundamentalist (of all strips) truly astounds me .

I don't think an authoritative source is necessary.

Just some logic.

If an innocent life is an innocent life from the moral standpoint of abortion because that life is not responsible for the cirucmstances of its conception.

then.....

do the math with me...


..an innocent life is an innocent life from the moral standpoint of the priesthood for the same reason.

otherwise....

The church would be inconsistent in its thelology.

Which it can not be.

QED
 
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BAFRIEND

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if there is nothing wrong with being illegitimate then why are you all making so much noise ?, otherwise you could just focus on answering the question with out all the personal attacks for me simply pointing out what the Church does indeed hold in regards to the matter

The church would be inconsistent in its thelology.

the Church did in fact bar illegitimate males from entering the priesthood, or did you even bother to read the thread ?
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Good article. :thumbsup:

The author doesn't seem to be suggesting that though, that I could see:

"briefly, that we have fallen out of the habit of observing Canon 277 in the Church, but the law (and theology behind the law) remains unchanged." ...

"I believe this is a “Josiah moment” for the Church. In the Old Testament, we are told that the good King Josiah discovered the law of Moses, after it had been long forgotten, and had it proclaimed again to the people of Israel. In the West today, we have forgotten the Church’s discipline about one of the essential obligations that ordination to orders carries with it. We are now witnessing this forgotten law being discovered again. The question now is, “will we follow the law?”"...

"I know that returning to this teaching will be met with resistance by some (“Wait, this isn’t what I signed up for!”) but my hope is that permanent deacons (and the rest of us) can acknowledge the wisdom of the Church’s teaching and discipline. How we deal with the situation of permanent deacons who were ordained without full knowledge of the requirements bound up with their office remains to be seen,"

Church Law says Permanent Deacons (and all clerics) are obliged to abstain from sex, notes Canonist Edward Peters {updated} | CatholicVote.org

That makes me wonder what the vows of a Deacon are?

This part of the article is really uplifting:

"After all, the obligation to abstain from sexual activity elevates the dignity of orders, and increases the sign value represented by observing continence for the sake of God’s Kingdom. This is something that all unmarried priests (and transitional deacons) are already bound to observe. Including permanent deacons and married priests among those who are bound to observe continence matches the reality that all these men described above share fundamentally in the same sacred reality: holy orders. There are not “two ways” of being a cleric in the Roman Catholic Church, instead, one sacrament unites them all, and carries the same obligations for all who are ordained as clerics.

Following the law removes the ambiguity and double-standard that we currently witness in the Church, an ambiguity that those who argue for a married priesthood capitalize on whenever they try to make the case that permanent deacons and married priests being able to have sexual relations means that all priests and deacons should. Rather, the solution is for all priests and deacons to observe the same perfect continence, as has been the long-standing tradition in Canon Law and the Western Catholic tradition.

The obligation of deacons to observe perfect continence, furthermore, provides an opportunity the wives of these married deacons to make a praiseworthy sacrifice on behalf of the Church. As Father Boyle says:

If the future deacon were to become bound by the obligation to observe perfect and perpetual continence, this would involve the renunciation by the wife of her marital rights. It would be unjust for her to be deprived of these rights by her husband’s ordination, but she could willingly renounce these rights for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.
"


God bless him. :)

Well, I saw a critique by a canonist who read the article I linked, and showed how the author is flawed in his interpretation of the law, and why it needs to be updated.

This law was actually written back in 1917, when there was no permanent diaconate. So, the Church was writing the law with the mindset that they were refering to priests and brothers.

Today of course, we have married deacons and to lump them into the term, "clergy," would be inaccurate. Although a Deacon is part of the clergy, the position is different in that they are allowed to be married, when ordained.

So, this creates a different set of law than what was written in 1917.

Anyway, when I was in discernment for the Diaconate, there was nothing ever said about deacons not having sexual relations with their wives.

If they did, how many men would be applying of the Diaconate?

Jim
 
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JoabAnias

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If they did, how many men would be applying of the Diaconate?

Obviously those with the cooperation of their wives. The other half of their marriages and their permanent faithful and fruitful partners.

The law provided was that: "we have fallen out of the habit of observing Canon 277 in the Church"

You should read that article again.

It is supported by;

Fr. John Boyle,
Canon Lawyer Ed Peters,
Deacon Greg Kandra,
Deacon Keith Fournier,
Deacon William Ditewig,
Deacon David Lopez, and
Phill Lawler.

who all agree:

"The argument is air-tight. There are... simply no loop-holes to be found."

"After all, the obligation to abstain from sexual activity elevates the dignity of orders, and increases the sign value represented by observing continence for the sake of God’s Kingdom. This is something that all unmarried priests (and transitional deacons) are already bound to observe. Including permanent deacons and married priests among those who are bound to observe continence matches the reality that all these men described above share fundamentally in the same sacred reality: holy orders. There are not “two ways” of being a cleric in the Roman Catholic Church, instead, one sacrament unites them all, and carries the same obligations for all who are ordained as clerics."

the Church was writing the law with the mindset that they were refering to priests and brothers.
Deacons are indeed taken into consideration in canon law and differentiated when the laws pertain specifically and singularly to them. Otherwise, they are included under the term of cleric.

The word deacon is specifically mentioned all through the code of canon law as it specifically does or does not apply to deacons. For example:

Can. 276
§1. In leading their lives, clerics are bound in a special way to pursue holiness since, having been consecrated to God by a new title in the reception of orders, they are dispensers of the mysteries of God in the service of His people.

§2. In order to be able to pursue this perfection:

1/ they are first of all to fulfill faithfully and tirelessly the duties of the pastoral ministry;

2/ they are to nourish their spiritual life from the two-fold table of sacred scripture and the Eucharist; therefore, priests are earnestly invited to offer the eucharistic sacrifice daily and deacons to participate in its offering daily;

3/ priests and deacons aspiring to the presbyterate are obliged to carry out the liturgy of the hours daily according to the proper and approved liturgical books; permanent deacons, however, are to carry out the same to the extent defined by the conference of bishops;

4/ they are equally bound to make time for spiritual retreats according to the prescripts of particular law;

5/ they are urged to engage in mental prayer regularly, to approach the sacrament of penance frequently, to honor the Virgin Mother of God with particular veneration, and to use other common and particular means of sanctification.

Can. 277
§1. Clerics are obliged to observe perfect and perpetual continence for the sake of the kingdom of heaven and therefore are bound to celibacy which is a special gift of God by which sacred ministers can adhere more easily to Christ with an undivided heart and are able to dedicate themselves more freely to the service of God and humanity.

In fact, canon 288 states:

Can. 288
The prescripts of cann. ⇒ 284, ⇒ 285, §§3 and 4, ⇒ 286, and ⇒ 287, §2 do not bind permanent deacons unless particular law establishes otherwise.

Which makes absolutely no mention of canon 277, which if it did, and canon 277 did not apply to deacons, would be listed here in canon 288 as well as the others.

It would seem that making such a sacrifice for the sake of the kingdom of heaven, as Fr Boyle an English canonist... who explain [the] argument step-by-step and is quoted in the article as saying:

"If the future deacon were to become bound by the obligation to observe perfect and perpetual continence, this would involve the renunciation by the wife of her marital rights. It would be unjust for her to be deprived of these rights by her husband’s ordination, but she could willingly renounce these rights for the sake of the kingdom of heaven."

would bear a very substantial fruit indeed.

The notion that canon law is out of date or needs to be adjusted to suit a transgression or that it doesn't take deacons into consideration would seem spurious.
 
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Andy Hardy

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if there is nothing wrong with being illegitimate then why are you all making so much noise ?, otherwise you could just focus on answering the question with out all the personal attacks for me simply pointing out what the Church does indeed hold in regards to the matter



the Church did in fact bar illegitimate males from entering the priesthood, or did you even bother to read the thread ?

.....care to square that stand with the moral theology of the Church, because it isn't obvious to me

And as far as my reading the thread, to tell the truth it got a little tedious and I just gave up after the second page.
 
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JoabAnias

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if there is nothing wrong with being illegitimate then why are you all making so much noise ?, otherwise you could just focus on answering the question with out all the personal attacks for me simply pointing out what the Church does indeed hold in regards to the matter

the Church did in fact bar illegitimate males from entering the priesthood, or did you even bother to read the thread ?

Did you know that a candidate for the priesthood must also have thumbs, be debt free and have at least a Bachelors degree?

Have you considered that; as this is a legal term to do with a matter of inheritance/paternity, it isn't to do with the state of the child - who is the candidate for the preisthood, at all, but with a potential inheritance battle or other legal complications?

This prohibition may have been for prevention of things like Nepotism and had nothing to do with the worthiness of the candidate based on the state of his parents marriage when he was born?

Preferment in ecclesiastical practice based on blood or family relationship rather than merit. Applied especially to the conferral of Church offices. Historically nepotism plagued the Church for centuries, was practiced by some of the popes, many bishops, and was one of the factors that led to the legislation of celibacy in the Western Church and to the Protestant Reformation. The most important legislation against nepotism was the bull Romanum decet Pontificem in 1692, of Pope Innocent XII. (Etym. Latin nepos, nephew.)

Which of course is not to condone the procreation of children outside of wedlock who are always legitimate in Gods eyes regardless. That error being a different topic.
 
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do you speak for God now.
Not personally no, I discern the truth from the Church who I am sure God is speaking through and says:

"1137. Children conceived or born of a valid or putative marriage are legitimate."

Unless otherwise specified, children legitimized by a subsequent marriage are, as far as canonical effects are concerned, held equal to legitimate children. Unless there is proof to the contrary, the husband of a woman is considered the father of her child. (referring to paternity/inheritance).

does the name essau ring a bell to you
Irrelevant for several reasons.

Are you unable to address the logic of the questions that were asked?
 
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