Again, the entire debate between Catholcism and Protestantism hinges upon salvation

Dark_Lite

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Actually pascal was catholic and his wager is a good one. Its not the strongest reasons to believe in God but it will get us to think and its logical. Catholic philosophers like my Thomist teacher Dr Feingold and Dr Peter Kreeft talk about this. so its not silly its logical.

From a philosophical standpoint, Pascal's Wager is extremely flimsy. It makes the assumption that the Christian God is real, and doesn't provide any kind of proof to back that up. The wager can be equally applied to any religion. That's why it's bad. Bob Jones Student is doing the same thing, except in a much more narrow scope.
 
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sunlover1

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You Can't really know or begin to even understand what Catholics beleive unless you really take a good college class on Catholic theology from a faithful Catholic school and see what we teach and how we pray and how our life is.
So most of your parishioners can't begin to even understand what they believe?
 
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Athanasias

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So most of your parishioners can't begin to even understand what they believe?


Depends. I would say most of the parishioners in the average parish have suffered from lack of proper formation and catechesis. If they have had solid parents who have taught them what the Catholic faith teaches and helped form them in their faith and if went to a good Catholci grade and high schools that were faithful to what the Churches teaching then it is possible they know there faith.

But most do not know their own faith well enough at all and they could all benefit from solid Catholic college courses that are faithful to the magisterium like we have a Ave Maria U.
 
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sunlover1

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Depends. I would say most of the parishioners in the average parish have suffered from lack of proper formation and catechesis. If they have had solid parents who have taught them what the Catholic faith teaches and helped form them in their faith and if went to a good Catholci grade and high schools that were faithful to what the Churches teaching then it is possible they know there faith.

But most do not know their own faith well enough at all and they could all benefit from solid Catholic college courses that are faithful to the magisterium like we have a Ave Maria U.
When I was RC we had catechism classes.


I have another question for you.
My kids are going to St Louis
in the spring and I was wondering
what you might recommend for
a "things you must see/do or
places you must visit" list
Thanks so much
sunlover
 
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Athanasias

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From a philosophical standpoint, Pascal's Wager is extremely flimsy. It makes the assumption that the Christian God is real, and doesn't provide any kind of proof to back that up. The wager can be equally applied to any religion. That's why it's bad. Bob Jones Student is doing the same thing, except in a much more narrow scope.

No one said it was the best argument for Gods existence . It is the weakest argument but it is logical and it can get one to at least say the prayer of "God if you exist help me to understand this".Yes Orthodox Catholic schools and professors do teach Pascals wager as a beginning to proofs for God's existence and its logical. Now St. Thomas provides far greater evidence for the existence of God but still Paschal was not bad just weak. Read some of Dr. Peters Kreefts book "handbook of Christian apologetic" he goes over this in his 20 proofs for Gods existence.

BTW I had a atheist friend of mine tell me that he found pascals argument compelling and logical.
 
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Athanasias

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When I was RC we had catechism classes.


I have another question for you.
My kids are going to St Louis
in the spring and I was wondering
what you might recommend for
a "things you must see/do or
places you must visit" list
Thanks so much
sunlover

Catechism classes are only as good or orthodox as its teachers. If you did not go over all the scriptural, historical, miraculous and logical reasons for the faith and how the Catechism demonstrates them then that can be a problem.Most average Catholics I meet have no understanding of their own faith even if they were catechized they probably were improperly. Ask them as a test to explain purgatory and ask them if its in the bible and where and if its always been taught by the whole Churhc since the beginning? If they cannot then you'll have your answer.

OOh good question. I would first and foremost take them to see the Cathedral Basilica It is beautiful and they have tours. Literally every wall is filled with beautiful mosaics of bible stories and Church history. They have great tours.

The Arch is ok to tour.


Butterfly museum

the Magic house (if they have kids)

Our free Zoo

The science center is really cool

the Art museum is good

And a landmark is Crown candy kitchen which serves food, candy shakes and drinks just like the in the 1940's. But tell them to go only during the day as the neighborhood is very bad.

I do suggest avioding casinos unless you like that kinda stuff. Also tell them to stay in South St, Louis county or West St louis county as Nort and east are really bad areas.
 
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sunlover1

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Catechism classes are only as good or orthodox as its teachers. If you did not go over all the scriptural, historical, miraculous and logical reasons for the faith and how the Catechism demonstrates them then that can be a problem.Most average Catholics I meet have no understanding of their own faith even if they were catechized they probably were improperly. Ask them as a test to explain purgatory and ask them if its in the bible and where and if its always been taught by the whole Churhc since the beginning? If they cannot then you'll have your answer.
Heh, I will keep that in mind.

OOh good question. I would first and foremost take them to see the Cathedral Basilica It is beautiful and they have tours. Literally every wall is filled with beautiful mosaics of bible stories and Church history. They have great tours.

The Arch is ok to tour.


Butterfly museum

the Magic house (if they have kids)

Our free Zoo

The science center is really cool

the Art museum is good

And a landmark is Crown candy kitchen which serves food, candy shakes and drinks just like the in the 1940's. But tell them to go only during the day as the neighborhood is very bad.

I do suggest avioding casinos unless you like that kinda stuff. Also tell them to stay in South St, Louis county or West St louis county as Nort and east are really bad areas.
[/QUOTE]
Thank you so much!...North and east are bad huh?
Darn, .. it's a missions trip so they'll probably not be in the "nicer" area.
But I will pass this list on to the youth leaders.
 
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Athanasias

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Heh, I will keep that in mind.
Thank you so much!...North and east are bad huh?
Darn, .. it's a missions trip so they'll probably not be in the "nicer" area.
But I will pass this list on to the youth leaders.[/quote]


Well thats ok. North city is bad but in the daytime it is not as bad. East St Louis is scary (lot of bad places ie strip clubs drugs etc there and dead bodies always end up over there) But that is were Jesus is needed the most.
 
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Bob Jones Student

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Let me think. What if everyone that accepts the doctrine you believe are wrong and deceived, and when you die, the Lord tells you that the heresy you are part of is wrong and you have been deceived and that those who followed the teachings of the Apostles where correct and the only saved ones where the ones that followed Jesus through those teachings of the Apostles?

What if God says to you that yes you believed in me, but even the devils believe that I am the Lord and when they hear my name they tremble. And since you have faith, but with no works or fruit from that faith, then your faith is dead and there is no life within you.

Catholics believe in Jesus. We also believe that it is only through Jesus Christ that we are saved. But we also believe that God calls us to do something with that belief and the graces that comes from justification. As Jesus taught us in the parable of the talents, He gives us grace, but He doesn't want us to sit on it. He wants us to use that grace to go out into the world to do His work. He also wants us to be Holy as He is Holy. Holy people do not live in sin do they? And when Holy people fall into sin which the Bible tells us we are going to do, then holy people fall down upon their knees and beg God to forgive us. Then God forgives us, picks us back up on our feet and tells us to get back out there and do His Holy work and follow His Holy life. That is what Catholics believe.

As Jesus said there will be many that call to me Lord, Lord and He will tell them that I know you not.

For your first paragraph, I know I'm not deceived, because it's based upon the Word alone. Only those who are elected will be saved.

Regarding works in my life, yes I have them, I have tons of fruit since I've been saved, but I don't trust in the works to save me.

Remember, again Catholics confuse justification and sanctification. You must be justified before you'll have works, but if you look to your faith and works to save you, then I assure you, based upon the Bible, you are not saved.

For your last section, Protestants and the like know and believe the same, but it only comes after a person is eternally saved. Once a person is truly saved, then they will have good works throughout their life.
 
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Dark_Lite

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For your first paragraph, I know I'm not deceived, because it's based upon the Word alone. Only those who are elected will be saved.

You mean your interpretation of the word (note small W). This is like saying "I know the Bible is true because the Bible says it's true." It's circular logic. Just because an idea is based upon [someone's interpretation of] the Bible alone doesn't mean it's correct.
 
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CryptoLutheran

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You mean your interpretation of the word (note small W). This is like saying "I know the Bible is true because the Bible say's it's true." It's circular logic. Just because an idea is based upon [someone's interpretation of] the Bible alone doesn't mean it's correct.

It's more like, "I'm right because I'm right". There's actually very little appeal to Scripture here. It's an ideology about the Bible that "substantiates" the claim. The Bible itself has very little function, it works as a factory that can output a series of isolated prooftexts, without attempting to struggle or wrestle with the text so that's words can actually have any dynamic meaning; and it functions more as a symbol. That's its main purpose here, it's a symbol that represents the supposed rightness of the position.

Even the Bible, then, has been robbed of its sacramental character. Even Scripture is no longer able to be a means through which God proclaims His grace to us--it too has been relegated to little more than a symbol.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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chestertonrules

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Remember, again Catholics confuse justification and sanctification. You must be justified before you'll have works, but if you look to your faith and works to save you, then I assure you, based upon the Bible, you are not saved.

.


Is James a Catholic or protestant?

James 2:24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Is James a Catholic or protestant?

James 2:24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
I believe he was an EO ;)
The Romans are in schism with the Orthodox, they do not share in our sacramental life nor are they in communion of belief. The Romans don't see it this way. The two cannot be two "lungs" of the same Church if they are not in communion of belief. This is a simple logical conclusion.
 
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Bob Jones Student

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Dark_Lite

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*sigh*

JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH - What about James 2:24? Is justification by works and faith? - ChristianAnswers.Net

Please read all of that.

I'm going to make a spin off thread for this topic alone. Find it soon!

The only relevant part of that site is the following:
“...James is dealing with people who profess to be Christians, and yet they don't evidence the reality of their faith by their works [deeds]. Over, and over again... people will say they have faith and they don't have works, and James is saying that real faith always produces works as a result... The question is, 'A man may say that he has faith, but will that faith justify him?' If it is just a 'said' faith”—no, it won't!” (D. James Kennedy in“Irreconcilable Differences,” a roundtable discussion and television broadcast, Ft. Lauderdale FL, 1995)

The rest is just quotes of Trent, a few Bible verses, and some completely irrelevant strawman about praying to Saints.

So anyway, that seems to be reading a lot into the text. Especially when it says "a man is not justified by faith only."
 
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CryptoLutheran

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*sigh*

JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH - What about James 2:24? Is justification by works and faith? - ChristianAnswers.Net

Please read all of that.

I'm going to make a spin off thread for this topic alone. Find it soon!

The funny thing is that I actually subscribe to Sola Fide, that we are justified through faith alone. The difference is that I don't believe faith is something I can do or give myself. That's why it's by grace alone, Sola Gratia.

Faith is a gift, one which God gives us. A gift normally received in Baptism, God's Means of Grace. I say normally, because it is impossible to box God in. He has promised us grace and faith in Baptism, but He has not refused grace and faith outside of Baptism.

What this means is that everyone who receives Baptism has the good and gracious promises of God regardless of anything they do or don't do. That's why it's grace, we aren't doing anything. Grace doesn't wait for us to figure out everything and have the right opinion or idea on something: it's there, given, and for us.

I think you're so hung up on trying to claim your version of Sola Fide that you're completely trampling over Sola Gratia, that it's by grace. Grace alone. Grace upon grace upon grace.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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chestertonrules

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LittleLambofJesus

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The only relevant part of that site is the following:


The rest is just quotes of Trent, a few Bible verses, and some completely irrelevant strawman about praying to Saints.

So anyway, that seems to be reading a lot into the text. Especially when it says "a man is not justified by faith only."
:)

http://www.christianforums.com/t7444864/
Praying to Mary and the Saints

strawman.jpg
 
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Cain Spencer

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"Ahem!" I am summoned onto the battle field! Mwuah ha ha!

First of all you are all wrong and so too is the title of this thread. Protestant and Catholic teachings on salvation are in no way indifferent. FIN.

...oh and second of all LLOJ I am utterly ashamed that after all the education I have given you, you have still failed to deliver the thruth about Catholic beliefs to these guys. Hmph!
 
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