If you are a creationist.

AV1611VET

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Hi, KingCrimson --- :wave: --- nice to meet you!
Well he's right on God being the translation of Elohim and LORD being the translation of Jehovah, but that's about it. AV - Elohim is a Jewish term, the Trinity is a largely Christian concept, there is no evidence to support a revelation of the Trinity in the Old Testament. How can Elohim represent the Godhead? In fact, Elohim was not specifically, as I understand things, a proper name for God, but rather simply an indication of divinity. It was used to describe anything that was a god or was considered to be a god. Yes, Elohim could have a plural sense in some specific situations, but it's not really cut-and-dry enough to say, "Hey, the word Elohim is used, that's a reference to the Trinity." Like, you can't make that argument.

I'm aware this is not helpful at all to the topic at hand but I felt compelled to point it out regardless.
Elohim --- plural form of Eloah --- is the God of Creation, whereas Jehovah is the God of Covenants.

The Bible has what's called expressed truths, and what's called implied truths.

And although the Trinity is not expressed in the Old Testament, it is certainly implied.

Look at Zechariah 12:10, for instance, where the LORD uses both "me" and "him" to refer to Jesus Christ.
Zechariah 12:10 said:
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Note also in Isaiah 63:7-10, where all three Members of the Godhead are mentioned.

Chuch Missler points out that in Psalm 2, all three members of the Godhead are conversing with each other.
 
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KingCrimson250

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Okay, that's interesting. This is obviously a massive derailment but I'm sure that after 39 pages no one's got anything all that pressing to say with regards to the OP anyway.

Anyway, I'd agree for sure that the Trinity was implied in the Old Testament. I'm just saying that the Israelites would not have been aware of the Trinity and so when they wrote Elohim it would not have been - to them, at any rate - a reference to the Trinity. Which may or may not be relevant, depending on the perspective you want to take when reading the text.

I'm not convinced I'd agree with Missler's interpretation, although I'd have to actually see it for myself to effectively evaluate it. The psalm is written for the coronation of a Davidic king. The Father-Son relationship was a common analogy for the Lord-Vassal agreement, the imagery being that God is the Lord/Father, and the king is the Vassal/Son. There certainly does seem to be some Messianic typology going on there, especially as evidenced by verses 8-9, but to call it a conversation between the Godhead is I think a little unwarranted.

Nice to meet you as well :)
 
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AV1611VET

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Okay, that's interesting. This is obviously a massive derailment but I'm sure that after 39 pages no one's got anything all that pressing to say with regards to the OP anyway.

Anyway, I'd agree for sure that the Trinity was implied in the Old Testament. I'm just saying that the Israelites would not have been aware of the Trinity and so when they wrote Elohim it would not have been - to them, at any rate - a reference to the Trinity. Which may or may not be relevant, depending on the perspective you want to take when reading the text.

I'm not convinced I'd agree with Missler's interpretation, although I'd have to actually see it for myself to effectively evaluate it. The psalm is written for the coronation of a Davidic king. The Father-Son relationship was a common analogy for the Lord-Vassal agreement, the imagery being that God is the Lord/Father, and the king is the Vassal/Son. There certainly does seem to be some Messianic typology going on there, especially as evidenced by verses 8-9, but to call it a conversation between the Godhead is I think a little unwarranted.

Nice to meet you as well :)
God bless!

And feel free to jump right in here and get your feet wet!

These guys are tough, though --- they'll definitely sharpen you up! :)
 
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KingCrimson250

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Oh, I'm not going to participate in the debate. I'm just observing for now. Sadly I lack the understanding of biology required to have a rational, well-thought out opinion on evolution so I'm just "soaking it in," as it were - at least for now. I just saw something that seemed to be an interesting discussion point that I could potentially participate in. For now it's just a matter of trying to understand the evolutionary theory, because I do know that a lot of Christians seem to charge into the debate without knowing what evolution really is. It's always kind of sad to see someone stand up and argue against some aspect of evolution which was rendered obsolete by new evidence ages ago, and yet some Christians will still do it.

So I might ask the occasional question, but that's it for now :)
 
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AV1611VET

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Oh, I'm not going to participate in the debate. I'm just observing for now. Sadly I lack the understanding of biology required to have a rational, well-thought out opinion on evolution so I'm just "soaking it in," as it were - at least for now. I just saw something that seemed to be an interesting discussion point that I could potentially participate in. For now it's just a matter of trying to understand the evolutionary theory, because I do know that a lot of Christians seem to charge into the debate without knowing what evolution really is. It's always kind of sad to see someone stand up and argue against some aspect of evolution which was rendered obsolete by new evidence ages ago, and yet some Christians will still do it.

So I might ask the occasional question, but that's it for now :)
Don't let any lack of knowledge on any given topic stop you though.

I wear my ignorance like a badge! :D

It's our faith they need to see --- not our knowledge.
 
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TheBear

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Oh, I'm not going to participate in the debate. I'm just observing for now. Sadly I lack the understanding of biology required to have a rational, well-thought out opinion on evolution so I'm just "soaking it in," as it were - at least for now. I just saw something that seemed to be an interesting discussion point that I could potentially participate in. For now it's just a matter of trying to understand the evolutionary theory, because I do know that a lot of Christians seem to charge into the debate without knowing what evolution really is. It's always kind of sad to see someone stand up and argue against some aspect of evolution which was rendered obsolete by new evidence ages ago, and yet some Christians will still do it.

So I might ask the occasional question, but that's it for now :)
Welcome to the board, KC250! :wave:
 
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Hespera

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Av sez

Don't let any lack of knowledge on any given topic stop you though.

I wear my ignorance like a badge! :D

It's our faith they need to see --- not our knowledge.


Hespera sez...

I dunno man, just across the water there are hundreds of millions of very smart very ambitious people who know better than to be proud of ignorance. They are hungry and USA is fat and complacent and way way too many are wallowing in self imposed ignorance and self satisfaction. Present company not included can excuse themselves.
 
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AV1611VET

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I dunno man, just across the water there are hundreds of millions of very smart very ambitious people who know better than to be proud of ignorance.
I am, of course, talking about being ignorant of certain doctrines that impose themselves on the Truths of the Bible.
 
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Hespera

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avsez I am, of course, talking about being ignorant of certain doctrines that impose themselves on the Truths of the Bible.


H sez:
I am referring of course to your and others' oft and sometimes proudly demonstrated ignorance of a great many things, that you guys take as "imposing" themselves" on the "truths" of the bible. "Doctrines' btw are bible stuff. Research verified facts are not doctrines. A ghost shirt, metaphorical or otherwise, wont stop them.

It strikes me as having the same sort of quality as the ghost shirt warriors of the plains a hundred and some years ago who thought their prayers would bring the buffalo back, stop the white mans bullets, and generally put things to right.

You DO know that there are hundreds of millions of smart hard working people who want (to take) what you have? You have any idea what i am talking about? You know ghost shirts wont stop them either?
 
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AV1611VET

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H sez: I am referring of course to your and others' oft and sometimes proudly demonstrated ignorance of a great many things, that you guys take as "imposing" themselves" on the "truths" of the bible. "Doctrines' btw are bible stuff. Research verified facts are not doctrines. A ghost shirt, metaphorical or otherwise, wont stop them.
I've said this before, and I'll say it again:

You have absolutely no "research verified facts" on the Creation --- none whatsoever.

You don't even know where to start, or what to look for.

So you can preach to me all day about how ignorant I am when it comes to the Creation --- I happen to understand it, because the Bible says I will if I'll accept it by faith.

Show me one thing your instrumentation can show me that disproves the Creation week.

In fact, until you can build a machine that can do this:
2 Kings 6:17 said:
And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
... I'll consider you guys just as ignorant.
 
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Nathan Poe

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I've said this before, and I'll say it again:

You have absolutely no "research verified facts" on the Creation --- none whatsoever.

You don't even know where to start, or what to look for.

So you can preach to me all day about how ignorant I am when it comes to the Creation --- I happen to understand it, because the Bible says I will if I'll accept it by faith.

Blessed are the credulous, for they keep the coffers full.

In fact, until you can build a machine that can do this: ... I'll consider you guys just as ignorant.

Until you can produce a God that can do that -- I'll consider you ignorant and delusional.
 
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Nathan Poe

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Don't let any lack of knowledge on any given topic stop you though.

I wear my ignorance like a badge! :D

Ignorance and pride -- there's a combination which traditionally never ends well.

It's our faith they need to see --- not our knowledge.

Actually, AV, nobody cares about your faith, and nobody expects to see your knowledge.
 
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MoonLancer

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I've said this before, and I'll say it again:

You have absolutely no "research verified facts" on the Creation --- none whatsoever.

You don't even know where to start, or what to look for.

So you can preach to me all day about how ignorant I am when it comes to the Creation --- I happen to understand it, because the Bible says I will if I'll accept it by faith.

Show me one thing your instrumentation can show me that disproves the Creation week.

In fact, until you can build a machine that can do this: ... I'll consider you guys just as ignorant.

Creationists before yourself knew what to look for, In the rocks and earth, They found that the creation was a lie (as you see it) and that the world was older then anyone could have dreamed of.
 
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AV1611VET

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Creationists before yourself knew what to look for, In the rocks and earth, They found that the creation was a lie (as you see it) and that the world was older then anyone could have dreamed of.
That's nice --- looking in the rocks and earth for evidence of creatio ex nihilo.

No wonder nothing was found.
 
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MrGoodBytes

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I've said this before, and I'll say it again:

You have absolutely no "research verified facts" on the Creation --- none whatsoever.

You don't even know where to start, or what to look for.

So you can preach to me all day about how ignorant I am when it comes to the Creation --- I happen to understand it, because the Bible says I will if I'll accept it by faith.

Show me one thing your instrumentation can show me that disproves the Creation week.

In fact, until you can build a machine that can do this: ... I'll consider you guys just as ignorant.
A machine that can do what, exactly? You keep throwing this particular quote around like it means something, but I never could figure out where its significance lies.
 
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Hespera

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Ignorance and pride -- there's a combination which traditionally never ends well.



Actually, AV, nobody cares about your faith, and nobody expects to see your knowledge.


a post or two up I was expressing the idea that Americans are way too fat satisfied and ignorant for their long term prospects in a world crowded with smart ambitious aggressive people.

Faith and ignorance are gonna make a very thin shield.


What I said about it was taken as a direct threat on someone's life, which was kinda weird, tho I see that it was reconsidered and deleted.

The very real threat to all of us goes on regardless. Our whole society is in danger and stupidity is a major reason for that danger. I hope I have been a citizen long enough that I can say that and not have it taken wrong by anyone else.
 
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AV1611VET

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On the contrary AV1611VET they found out enough to tell them that the earth was a lot older than they had originally thought, in fact they realized that it was (as they thought) hundreds of thousands of years old.
And again, that has what to do with creatio ex nihilo?
 
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